Fordham ($) vs Cardozo ($$) Forum

[jbalsamo]

So I want to ultimately work in a Firm in NYC either in IP/Media Law or BigLaw

Fordham is offering 20K per year in Need and Merit Aid, (no stated stips)Renewable for 3 years 60K

Cardozo is offering 36k Per year with no stips (108k Total)

[papercut]

What's your total COA gonna be?

[jbalsamo]

Roughly 75k at each but I plan on living frugally enough aka with roommates somewhere affordable for between 65-70. I also plan on using savings from summer work to help cover rent and living expenses.

The major difference would be that I would have to.take a PLUS loan from Fordham, and that I wouldn't be able to use excess loan funds to pay for living expenses.

[papercut]

What kinda work do you wanna do after you graduate?

I donno, I'd probably go to Fordham for the better employment prospects.

[jbalsamo]

I'm very interested in communications IP/biglaw or jag. And longterm from there to the DAs office or public service

[timbs4339]

What is going to be the total amount of debt on your student loan bill on the first day after you graduate law school?

[jbalsamo]

96K for Fordham over 3 years+ 28k for undergrad = 124K+interest

60K for Cardozo +28k from Undergrad= 88k +Interest

This is based on me being able to save and live pragmatically enough to pay for the COL without using loans (through savings, becoming an RA etc...)

[BigZuck]

You want big law?

Neither. Retake.

[Elston Gunn]

96K for Fordham over 3 years+ 28k for undergrad = 124K+interest

60K for Cardozo +28k from Undergrad= 88k +Interest

This is based on me being able to save and live pragmatically enough to pay for the COL without using loans (through savings, becoming an RA etc...)

Er, you're planning to pay for CoL by working at normal law student jobs? That's very unrealistic.

[jbalsamo]

96K for Fordham over 3 years+ 28k for undergrad = 124K+interest

60K for Cardozo +28k from Undergrad= 88k +Interest

This is based on me being able to save and live pragmatically enough to pay for the COL without using loans (through savings, becoming an RA etc...)

Er, you're planning to pay for CoL by working at normal law student jobs? That's very unrealistic.

For the first year I will use savings and earnings from work. For 2L I will try to get a job as an RA, (Free Room and Board), There is no way I could pay roughly 16k in living all three years, but I am counting on a combination of summer savings, living at home over the summer, and diligence to avoid taking significant loans toward COL.

[180kickflip]

It sounds like you're counting on a number of things that don't exist yet and may never exist. You should plan for the worst and hope for the best. Calculate the total COA without any RA positions, jobs, assistance, etc that you don't already know are 100% guaranteed. Whatever numbers that comes out to is what you should base your decisions on. Considering NYC COL, it looks like Fordham would be pushing 200k debt at grad...and that's way too much for the job prospects it offers.

I mean, what if you don't actually find a job 1L year? What if you find that you can't effectively study while working? What if you don't get an RA job or they refuse to cover all of your room+board?

Once you have a written contract for an RA position that provides room+board or an offer letter for a job that will cover the expenses you're cutting out, then it makes sense to count them. Not now.

[timbs4339]

Your assumption that you'll be able to make 20K during the school year as an RA is wrong. I was very diligent about trying to find part-time work, and IIRC at my T6, RA's were paid about $12/hr and were limited to 20 hrs per week- you were lucky if you got that. Most professors didn't take on paid RA's. I do not know where the free room and board thing comes from, that is not the deal at any law school I know of. Law school is not like a typical grad school program.

You need to check this out before you pull the trigger because if you're wrong (and trust me, you are wrong) that increases the debt load by another 60-70K.

[lastsamurai]

Your assumption that you'll be able to make 20K during the school year as an RA is wrong. I was very diligent about trying to find part-time work, and IIRC at my T6, RA's were paid about $12/hr and were limited to 20 hrs per week- you were lucky if you got that. Most professors didn't take on paid RA's. I do not know where the free room and board thing comes from, that is not the deal at any law school I know of. Law school is not like a typical grad school program.

You need to check this out before you pull the trigger because if you're wrong (and trust me, you are wrong) that increases the debt load by another 60-70K.

Believe OP is talking about a Resident Assistant rather than a Research Assistant

[timbs4339]

Your assumption that you'll be able to make 20K during the school year as an RA is wrong. I was very diligent about trying to find part-time work, and IIRC at my T6, RA's were paid about $12/hr and were limited to 20 hrs per week- you were lucky if you got that. Most professors didn't take on paid RA's. I do not know where the free room and board thing comes from, that is not the deal at any law school I know of. Law school is not like a typical grad school program.

You need to check this out before you pull the trigger because if you're wrong (and trust me, you are wrong) that increases the debt load by another 60-70K.

Believe OP is talking about a Resident Assistant rather than a Research Assistant

My bad. But I still recommend OP make sure this position is available to law students.

[jbalsamo]

It is available to 2L and 3L Fordham students at the Lincoln Center Campus. I've been and RA for 2 year at BU and 3 summers at Columbia University, so I have the basic qualifications and experience to put a good app together.


It pays for room and board. Not guaranteed but I would have a good shot. My family live on LI and if and COL became to high in 2L or 3L my backup could be to move back home for a year and commute on the LIRR.

[sd5289]

It is available to 2L and 3L Fordham students at the Lincoln Center Campus. I've been and RA for 2 year at BU and 3 summers at Columbia University, so I have the basic qualifications and experience to put a good app together.

It pays for room and board. Not guaranteed but I would have a good shot. My family live on LI and if and COL became to high in 2L or 3L my backup could be to move back home for a year and commute on the LIRR.

I'm almost positive Cardozo does NOT have this option. There's a "dorm" of sorts nearby, but I've never heard of student RA's. "RA" here means research assistant, and that certainly is not enough $$$ to live on.

I was doing the exact same debate a few years ago, except Cardozo went up to a full ride. That made it a lot easier.

Neither school places well in Big Law.

[jbalsamo]

Cardozo does have this option, but only for the Yeshiva College Woman's and Men's Campus in Washington Heights and Midtown. Law students (2 and 3Ls) can serve as Graduate Resident Assistants (Free Board+2 Grand Stipend).

I like that Fordham offers this for the Lincoln Center Campus because of the undergrad college there.

Update: I emailed Cardozo politely letting them know of my intent to withdraw, I asked them if my current scholarship was the final offer they could do, they said they couldn't go higher and wished me luck. So it looks like I'm going to Fordham.

[dsamuels]

I'm guessing you want to be in NY after you graduate. Correct me if I'm wrong, but does Fordham not place better than Cardozo in what you want to do? I'm not sure though.

[twenty]

Your numbers seem abnormal. If you can live with your parents and have them pay for your food/room and get an extra 5k/year from Fordham, I might do that.

[sd5289]

Cardozo does have this option, but only for the Yeshiva College Woman's and Men's Campus in Washington Heights and Midtown. Law students (2 and 3Ls) can serve as Graduate Resident Assistants (Free Board+2 Grand Stipend).

Weird. I'm nearly done with 2L and I've never even heard of this or anyone who's done it.

Update: I emailed Cardozo politely letting them know of my intent to withdraw, I asked them if my current scholarship was the final offer they could do, they said they couldn't go higher and wished me luck. So it looks like I'm going to Fordham.

That happened to me too (though quite a bit earlier in the cycle), and a week or so after I withdrew they emailed me back asking if I'd still be interested if they increased the scholly. I said it depends on the increase, and they came back with the full ride. Fordham refused to match it. So be on the lookout for that, especially when they get desperate for better #'s.

[jbalsamo]

I'm guessing you want to be in NY after you graduate. Correct me if I'm wrong, but does Fordham not place better than Cardozo in what you want to do? I'm not sure though.

Fordham Does place better in BigLaw

2011: 25% 2012: 30% 2013: 34.1% So there is some serious upward trending here as the economy improves.

Money being equal Fordham would easily be my top choice. Right now the only way I would go to Cardozo is if I get my 36K bumped up to a full ride.

[jbalsamo]

Your numbers seem abnormal. If you can live with your parents and have them pay for your food/room and get an extra 5k/year from Fordham, I might do that.

I'm a MA URM, which probably would account for the unpredictable offer. I may live at home for a year, but not 1L. I live about 1 hour and a half from Lincoln Center. Not impossible, but not something I would want to do my first year.

[jbalsamo]

Cardozo does have this option, but only for the Yeshiva College Woman's and Men's Campus in Washington Heights and Midtown. Law students (2 and 3Ls) can serve as Graduate Resident Assistants (Free Board+2 Grand Stipend).

Weird. I'm nearly done with 2L and I've never even heard of this or anyone who's done it.

Update: I emailed Cardozo politely letting them know of my intent to withdraw, I asked them if my current scholarship was the final offer they could do, they said they couldn't go higher and wished me luck. So it looks like I'm going to Fordham.

That happened to me too (though quite a bit earlier in the cycle), and a week or so after I withdrew they emailed me back asking if I'd still be interested if they increased the scholly. I said it depends on the increase, and they came back with the full ride. Fordham refused to match it. So be on the lookout for that, especially when they get desperate for better #'s.

I only looked into it because I knew a 3L at BU who was an RA, a lot of schools allow grad students to apply.

[sd5289]

Fordham Does place better in BigLaw

Fordham's placement in firms of 500+ for the class of 2013 = 120 people, or 24.9% of their employed grads.

Cardozo's placement in firms of 500+ for the class of 2013 = 30 people, or 7.5% of their employed grads.

So, for sure.

Perusing the data a bit more for what I was interested in, Fordham's placement in FT/LT Gov't/PI for the class of 2013 = 35 grads, or roughly 7.5% of their employed grads. Cardozo's placement in FT/LT Gov't/PI for the class of 2013 = 44 grads, or roughly 11% of their employed grads.

The disparity in Cardozo's placement in big firms versus Gov't/PI actually strikes me as about right given what I witnessed (anecdotally) with my friends going through OCI. As far as I know, just about every single one of them struck out. Based on the #'s and what I've seen around, if you want Big Law, Fordham undoubtedly places better...but you'd need to be in that lucky 24.9%.

[twenty]

Your numbers seem abnormal. If you can live with your parents and have them pay for your food/room and get an extra 5k/year from Fordham, I might do that.

I'm a MA URM, which probably would account for the unpredictable offer. I may live at home for a year, but not 1L. I live about 1 hour and a half from Lincoln Center. Not impossible, but not something I would want to do my first year.

I'm sorry, I meant your COA numbers seem abnormally low. Incidentally, though, if you're an MA URM, you should seriously consider retaking the LSAT for good money options at a T14. A lowish GPA won't necessarily keep you out of scholarship territory as a URM.