HLS vs SLS for NYC Forum

[hollermahler]

Hi so I'm sure the H vs. S has probably been discussed to death a lot on this board, but I only sometimes lurk here. I know for clerkship placement, S tends to beat H, but are there any statistics for how well S places in NYC vs H? Some say the smaller class size and dominance on the west coast makes S grads more sought after on the east coast, but I don't know if there's anything to back that up.


Thanks all!

[twenty]

Both place equally well in NYC (and in basically all secondary markets, for that matter). Usually you'd want to go for whichever is cheaper.

[aboutmydaylight]

S has better placement in general, and the plurality of their grads are going into a tougher market. I can't imagine that H would be better for NYC, though both schools should get you there easily so I don't think it should be your primary concern when choosing.

[UnicornHunter]

Didn't you get a Levy at Penn? Cause cash money at CCNP (at least) is TCR for NYC.

[hollermahler]

Didn't you get a Levy at Penn? Cause cash money at CCNP (at least) is TCR for NYC.

I did but exploding offer and I'd rather have the job security of H/S over P. I don't know how well I'll do in lawl school and would rather be median there than at P. Just the tradeoff I chose...I know TLS is more debt averse than me.

[ph14]

Hi so I'm sure the H vs. S has probably been discussed to death a lot on this board, but I only sometimes lurk here. I know for clerkship placement, S tends to beat H, but are there any statistics for how well S places in NYC vs H? Some say the smaller class size and dominance on the west coast makes S grads more sought after on the east coast, but I don't know if there's anything to back that up.


Thanks all!

HLS places very well into NYC (though SLS probably places equally as well). Check out firm bios of HLS grades working at the most selective firms. You see a lot of people with cum laude (top 40%) or no honors in at all of the most selective firms (Wachtell, Cravath, S&C, etc.). HLS has a huge alumni network in NYC.

In the end, probably pick based on cost of attendance, and if equal or in the same ballpark, by quality-of-life considerations and geographic location.

[hollermahler]

Thanks guys, I will mostly be making my choice on the other factors your mentioned, don't worry I was just curious.

[ph14]

Thanks guys, I will mostly be making my choice on the other factors your mentioned, don't worry I was just curious.

What kind of aid are you getting? Where are you leaning?

[hollermahler]

Thanks guys, I will mostly be making my choice on the other factors your mentioned, don't worry I was just curious.

What kind of aid are you getting? Where are you leaning?

0 since parents are loaded by financial aid standards (H said don't bother applying if they make over 180k combined). I'm leaning toward S at this point but still having a hard time letting H go. H and Cambridge would be more of an adventure since I'm from the west coast. Not a clerkship or bust person, actually think I want to end up in transactions for startups, so Silicon Valley makes the most sense, but I don't want to close off options in NYC.

There are a few things that I dislike about S like the first "quarter," which is really a semester. The line students used was "1L sucks at every school." So that's probably true of everywhere except Y. H seems to make no illusions that the experience is wonderful, but I went into the ASW expecting that. It sounds like both GSB and HBS make it difficult logistically to cross-register relative to the other schools at the respective universities.

Also I have no idea how I'll fare academically, so I'd like to have the "cushiest" experience as possible as far as law school goes.

[aboutmydaylight]

Thanks guys, I will mostly be making my choice on the other factors your mentioned, don't worry I was just curious.

What kind of aid are you getting? Where are you leaning?

0 since parents are loaded by financial aid standards (H said don't bother applying if they make over 180k combined). I'm leaning toward S at this point but still having a hard time letting H go. H and Cambridge would be more of an adventure since I'm from the west coast. Not a clerkship or bust person, actually think I want to end up in transactions for startups, so Silicon Valley makes the most sense, but I don't want to close off options in NYC.

There are a few things that I dislike about S like the first "quarter," which is really a semester. The line students used was "1L sucks at every school." So that's probably true of everywhere except Y. H seems to make no illusions that the experience is wonderful, but I went into the ASW expecting that. It sounds like both GSB and HBS make it difficult logistically to cross-register relative to the other schools at the respective universities.

Also I have no idea how I'll fare academically, so I'd like to have the "cushiest" experience as possible as far as law school goes.

Well are your parents helping you? I wouldn't take either at 100% debt financed, but you already turned down levy so yea...

[ph14]

Thanks guys, I will mostly be making my choice on the other factors your mentioned, don't worry I was just curious.

What kind of aid are you getting? Where are you leaning?

0 since parents are loaded by financial aid standards (H said don't bother applying if they make over 180k combined). I'm leaning toward S at this point but still having a hard time letting H go. H and Cambridge would be more of an adventure since I'm from the west coast. Not a clerkship or bust person, actually think I want to end up in transactions for startups, so Silicon Valley makes the most sense, but I don't want to close off options in NYC.

There are a few things that I dislike about S like the first "quarter," which is really a semester. The line students used was "1L sucks at every school." So that's probably true of everywhere except Y. H seems to make no illusions that the experience is wonderful, but I went into the ASW expecting that. It sounds like both GSB and HBS make it difficult logistically to cross-register relative to the other schools at the respective universities.

Also I have no idea how I'll fare academically, so I'd like to have the "cushiest" experience as possible as far as law school goes.

Well if you want the cushiest experience you should pick HLS. Semesters are a much cushier experience than trimesters. From what I can tell from my SLS friends you don't really learn much less in a quarter than a semester, plus you have one more round of exams each year. I'm about to go through my 6th round of law school exams and that has been more than plenty for me. 9 doesn't sound fun. Plus, HLS gives out more Hs as a percentage of the class than SLS, so there's that too.

I don't think cross-registering is logistically difficult. I did it and so did many other students. You go on a website, click a drop down menu, and hit submit. Then you get approved by the instructor or not.

You can get either Silicon Valley from HLS or NYC from SLS, so I wouldn't worry about closing any doors in that respect.

[hollermahler]

They are to an extent. I'll be coming out of this thing with about $80k debt give or take at either school. I've been living like a peasant for 2 years in order to save up as much as possible!

[aboutmydaylight]

There isn't a wrong choice between these two at 80k debt. Go where you like it more.

[hollermahler]

Thanks guys, I will mostly be making my choice on the other factors your mentioned, don't worry I was just curious.

What kind of aid are you getting? Where are you leaning?

0 since parents are loaded by financial aid standards (H said don't bother applying if they make over 180k combined). I'm leaning toward S at this point but still having a hard time letting H go. H and Cambridge would be more of an adventure since I'm from the west coast. Not a clerkship or bust person, actually think I want to end up in transactions for startups, so Silicon Valley makes the most sense, but I don't want to close off options in NYC.

There are a few things that I dislike about S like the first "quarter," which is really a semester. The line students used was "1L sucks at every school." So that's probably true of everywhere except Y. H seems to make no illusions that the experience is wonderful, but I went into the ASW expecting that. It sounds like both GSB and HBS make it difficult logistically to cross-register relative to the other schools at the respective universities.

Also I have no idea how I'll fare academically, so I'd like to have the "cushiest" experience as possible as far as law school goes.

Well if you want the cushiest experience you should pick HLS. Semesters are a much cushier experience than trimesters. From what I can tell from my SLS friends you don't really learn much less in a quarter than a semester, plus you have one more round of exams each year. I'm about to go through my 6th round of law school exams and that has been more than plenty for me. 9 doesn't sound fun. Plus, HLS gives out more Hs as a percentage of the class than SLS, so there's that too.

I don't think cross-registering is logistically difficult. I did it and so did many other students. You go on a website, click a drop down menu, and hit submit. Then you get approved by the instructor or not.

You can get either Silicon Valley from HLS or NYC from SLS, so I wouldn't worry about closing any doors in that respect.

Yep, everything you said are things I dislike about S theoretically. Others have argued that the quarter system gives you more bites at the apple in order to secure Hs before OCI. I've gone back and forth on this. I heard that HBS and HLS are on slightly different academic timetables and so that makes summer internships, OCI, moving etc. more complicated.

[ph14]

Yep, everything you said are things I dislike about S theoretically. Others have argued that the quarter system gives you more bites at the apple in order to secure Hs before OCI. I've gone back and forth on this. I heard that HBS and HLS are on slightly different academic timetables and so that makes summer internships, OCI, moving etc. more complicated.

Most people don't have dramatic changes in grades. More "bites at the apple" means more work and less Hs means more stressful. As far as HLS lining up with HBS, there are plenty of students who take classes at both, including JD/MBAs, As far as i'm aware, the calendars are roughly aligned. They might be off by a week, but it's not significant.

Moreover, if you're talking about making summer internships, OCI, moving, etc. more complicated look no further than Stanford "We're going to end your school year in the middle of June" Law School. Also, part of their writing competition is during your 1L summer.

To me at least if you're looking for cushy it's probably YLS > HLS > SLS. The big leg up for SLS would be the weather.

[hollermahler]

Yep, everything you said are things I dislike about S theoretically. Others have argued that the quarter system gives you more bites at the apple in order to secure Hs before OCI. I've gone back and forth on this. I heard that HBS and HLS are on slightly different academic timetables and so that makes summer internships, OCI, moving etc. more complicated.

Most people don't have dramatic changes in grades. More "bites at the apple" means more work and less Hs means more stressful. As far as HLS lining up with HBS, there are plenty of students who take classes at both, including JD/MBAs, As far as i'm aware, the calendars are roughly aligned. They might be off by a week, but it's not significant.

Moreover, if you're talking about making summer internships, OCI, moving, etc. more complicated look no further than Stanford "We're going to end your school year in the middle of June" Law School. Also, part of their writing competition is during your 1L summer.

To me at least if you're looking for cushy it's probably YLS > HLS > SLS. The big leg up for SLS would be the weather.

thanks for complicating my decision

[rayiner]

If you want NYC, bear in mind that firms in NYC are mostly unselective when it comes to HYS and even CCN. The only real exception is WLRK, maybe S&C. Cravath will go down to median and slightly below for HYSCCN, and so will nearly everyone else. So whether H or S places better in NYC is theoretical.

[ph14]

Yep, everything you said are things I dislike about S theoretically. Others have argued that the quarter system gives you more bites at the apple in order to secure Hs before OCI. I've gone back and forth on this. I heard that HBS and HLS are on slightly different academic timetables and so that makes summer internships, OCI, moving etc. more complicated.

Most people don't have dramatic changes in grades. More "bites at the apple" means more work and less Hs means more stressful. As far as HLS lining up with HBS, there are plenty of students who take classes at both, including JD/MBAs, As far as i'm aware, the calendars are roughly aligned. They might be off by a week, but it's not significant.

Moreover, if you're talking about making summer internships, OCI, moving, etc. more complicated look no further than Stanford "We're going to end your school year in the middle of June" Law School. Also, part of their writing competition is during your 1L summer.

To me at least if you're looking for cushy it's probably YLS > HLS > SLS. The big leg up for SLS would be the weather.

thanks for complicating my decision

That's what i'm here for.

[jbagelboy]

Wait, do you want SV or NY? The OP says NY, but at a later point you say you want to do tech in CA.

This matters because I would go to Stanford if I was most interested in doing start-up/tech/patent work in the bay area, and I would definitely go to Harvard if I wanted transactional practices in New York. We can theorize about the relative placement power of Stanford in New York, self-selection yadayada, but Harvard has an undeniable presence across all the top shops in NY. The exit options from these top firms will also be stacked with the Harvard alumni network more generally. Similarly, there are plenty of Harvard students heading to California at great firms, but you won't have the institutional and locality presence the Stanford students can rely on and develop (there's a lot of cool start-up activity in Boston/Cambridge too, I'm not dismissing that, but it's not the same as SV).

I think it comes down to this dichotomy since cost doesn't seem very relevant to you, and you haven't mentioned wanting to clerk and go into government.

Both great choices congratulations on your cycle

[hollermahler]

Wait, do you want SV or NY? The OP says NY, but at a later point you say you want to do tech in CA.

This matters because I would go to Stanford if I was most interested in doing start-up/tech/patent work in the bay area, and I would definitely go to Harvard if I wanted transactional practices in New York. We can theorize about the relative placement power of Stanford in New York, self-selection yadayada, but Harvard has an undeniable presence across all the top shops in NY. The exit options from these top firms will also be stacked with the Harvard alumni network more generally. Similarly, there are plenty of Harvard students heading to California at great firms, but you won't have the institutional and locality presence the Stanford students can rely on and develop (there's a lot of cool start-up activity in Boston/Cambridge too, I'm not dismissing that, but it's not the same as SV).

I think it comes down to this dichotomy since cost doesn't seem very relevant to you, and you haven't mentioned wanting to clerk and go into government.

Both great choices congratulations on your cycle

Thanks I'm mostly just hedging. SV startup work is what I *think* I want to do but have been in the M&A field for a while now and may want to go into that. Not really sure if I want to be a sadomasochist yet and "resign" myself to M&A NYC, though that's where the big deals are, and I'm not sure if there really are any California M&A shops--seems mostly litigation. Harvard has an undeniable presence in NYC, but everyone seems to say its career options aren't much better than Columbia's or NYU's for NYC. I'm wondering if the same is true of SLS.

[jbagelboy]

Wait, do you want SV or NY? The OP says NY, but at a later point you say you want to do tech in CA.

This matters because I would go to Stanford if I was most interested in doing start-up/tech/patent work in the bay area, and I would definitely go to Harvard if I wanted transactional practices in New York. We can theorize about the relative placement power of Stanford in New York, self-selection yadayada, but Harvard has an undeniable presence across all the top shops in NY. The exit options from these top firms will also be stacked with the Harvard alumni network more generally. Similarly, there are plenty of Harvard students heading to California at great firms, but you won't have the institutional and locality presence the Stanford students can rely on and develop (there's a lot of cool start-up activity in Boston/Cambridge too, I'm not dismissing that, but it's not the same as SV).

I think it comes down to this dichotomy since cost doesn't seem very relevant to you, and you haven't mentioned wanting to clerk and go into government.

Both great choices congratulations on your cycle

Thanks I'm mostly just hedging. SV startup work is what I *think* I want to do but have been in the M&A field for a while now and may want to go into that. Not really sure if I want to be a sadomasochist yet and "resign" myself to M&A NYC, though that's where the big deals are, and I'm not sure if there really are any California M&A shops--seems mostly litigation. Harvard has an undeniable presence in NYC, but everyone seems to say its career options aren't much better than Columbia or NYU for NYC. I'm wondering if the same is true of SLS.

Harvard, Columbia, NYU and Stanford have very comparable presence in New York. Harvard and Columbia have the edge for the top firms, mostly because it's not Stanford grads' chief market. Take a look at summer class sizes at V10's and post-grad employment data you'll see. But I don't really see how that's a bad thing? These are the top schools for the market. In DC, for example, both Harvard and Stanford have noted strength over CLS/NYU. And obviously SLS dominates the CA market.

I think Stanford places on par with Columbia and Harvard in New York terms of where a given student at a certain place in the class can go. Certain hiring partners will prefer Harvard or Columbia grads due to east coast bias, but this is mostly anecdotal and I think most top firms are pleased to have a little diversity so every summer associate isn't HCN.

[hollermahler]

Thanks--re: the bolded text, not a bad thing, just a reference to a different rabbit hole on going to CCN with money vs HYS if goals are NYC biglaw.

[jbagelboy]

Thanks--re: the bolded text, not a bad thing, just a reference to a different rabbit hole on going to CCN with money vs HYS if goals are NYC biglaw.

Well FWIW if you'd put a Hamilton or Ruby up there it would have been my (and everyone else's) vote hands down, but you didn't. I'm assuming either these weren't options or you withdrew so it's moot.

Ultimately both schools offer terrific flexibility and this one might actually come down to personal preference unless you decide you're strongly committed to SV or NY one way or the other. I still think it's funny the title says NYC.

[lastsamurai]

SLS has the edge for silicon valley right? And NYC is obviously doable from either. H and S will both open both doors for you, but SLS might open them slightly more. I would have to vote SLS but you can't go wrong.

Good luck!

[gottago]

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