Advice for Somone Interested in Legal Academia Forum

[billydaduck]

Looking for thoughts on what my best option is

Admitted at NYU (50k)
Admitted at Cornell (150k)

Waitlist Yale
Waitlist Chicago

Should I take one of my above two options if I don't make it off a waitlist or should I reapply in a year or two? My career goal is legal academia (decade or so in the future) which makes school choice a little more significant than standard big law or bust. I would take Cornell over NYU if they had similar job prospects as I prefer smaller cities.... but they don't.

All comments appreciated.

[ph14]

Looking for thoughts on what my best option is

Admitted at NYU (50k)
Admitted at Cornell (150k)

Waitlist Yale
Waitlist Chicago

Should I take one of my above two options if I don't make it off a waitlist or should I reapply in a year or two? My career goal is legal academia (decade or so in the future) which makes school choice a little more significant than standard big law or bust. I would take Cornell over NYU if they had similar job prospects as I prefer smaller cities.... but they don't.

All comments appreciated.

Don't think either one is significantly better for legal academia, especially when we are talking 10 years past law school graduation.

[billydaduck]

I'm going off Leiter rankings but I have no idea what the self selection bias is and what the actual job prospect component is

http://leiterrankings.com/new/2011_LawTeachers.shtml

[TooOld4This]

Looking for thoughts on what my best option is

Admitted at NYU (50k)
Admitted at Cornell (150k)

Waitlist Yale
Waitlist Chicago

Should I take one of my above two options if I don't make it off a waitlist or should I reapply in a year or two? My career goal is legal academia (decade or so in the future) which makes school choice a little more significant than standard big law or bust. I would take Cornell over NYU if they had similar job prospects as I prefer smaller cities.... but they don't.

All comments appreciated.

It doesn't sound like you have developed strong enough goals to go down this road yet. Wait a few years and reapply.

(Legal academia isn't something you can really do in a decade or so. The hiring model is different. And if you are serious about having a real shot at being an academic, you should ideally go to law school with somewhat of a research agenda already sketched out. If all you want is a clinical or adjunct position, then it is about your work experience more than your law school (at least within the T14).

[BigZuck]

Why, specifically, are you interested in legal academia?

[billydaduck]

Sorry to take so long to respond.

Already have research pending publication (my guess is 1-2 more peer revisions out from publication) in what I am more or less interested in; there is not a specific school that is superior in said field.

I'm aware of the current hiring model where the average amount of experience since law school is about 2 years; I would rather have more time between beginning legal work and teaching but yes to the posters here I recognize that that is an uncommon path.

The real question is on job prospects coming from either school and whether or not the Leiter rankings represent self selection or actual differences in job prospects.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I don't think there's any data that allows parsing the self-selection/different prospects issue. My understanding is that publications are what will get you ahead, more than school pedigree - someone with well-placed LR articles from wherever is going to have a better shot than a Yalie with nothing. The problem with that argument, of course, is that the higher-pedigreed schools tend to offer more opportunities/resources for to writing and placing the articles. (And because LRs don't use blind review, it's hard to say that having a shinier school on your resume doesn't help get the articles placed, either.)

As to whether you should attend or reapply if you don't get off the waitlists - I suppose some of that depends on your stats/qualifications and how much your application would change in a couple of years. I do think Yale/Chicago would be better for academic prospects, though I would put NYU after that over Cornell. (But keep in mind that's just based on vague memories of where I've seen profs attend schools, not any detailed knowledge of the statistics.)

[Lincoln]

If you have the stats for Yale, it may be worth waiting.

I went to Cornell, and honestly I don't think it makes much difference where you go, except I'd try to keep debt low to give you maximum flexibility upon graduation to pursue weird fellowships or whatever allows you to publish a lot.

[Pulsar]

I doubt NYU and Cornell vary enough to make $100k differences worth it. A lot about academia is what you can come up with and publish, and there's a limit to how much school choice can help with that.

That said wherever you go you better have pretty BA grades and you better actually writing those kinds of articles. It's not for everyone.

[billydaduck]

Interesting thoughts from everyone; thank you.

It will be a tough choice no matter what (unless Yale lets me off the waitlist).

Stats are 173/3.8 first take. Given my PTs I could probably test up to 176-177 zone with some more intensive study. I would work for a think tank during the gap before reapplying. Not sure if any of that really helps in discerning how much more competitive one becomes at Yale after getting waitlisted first cycle.

[timbs4339]

What's your backup plan?

I say this because it's really a crapshoot. Assuming no PhD, then you not only have to publish you have to engage in the requisite hoop-jumping, top grades > law review > federal circuit or prestigious district court clerkship > federal agency or prestigious biglaw firm. And you have to do this at a time when law schools are laying off or buying out faculty members.

Essentially, if you land around median your first year you are essentially disqualified no matter how many articles you publish during school. Legal academics are some of the biggest prestige-whores in a profession that takes prestige-whoring to new and glorious heights.

[buffalo_]

Interesting thoughts from everyone; thank you.

It will be a tough choice no matter what (unless Yale lets me off the waitlist).

Stats are 173/3.8 first take. Given my PTs I could probably test up to 176-177 zone with some more intensive study. I would work for a think tank during the gap before reapplying. Not sure if any of that really helps in discerning how much more competitive one becomes at Yale after getting waitlisted first cycle.

If you really believe you can crack 176 then I think you should wait, study like crazy, retake, and go next year. At 173 you are median at Yale and your GPA is below median. a 176 puts you at the 75% percentile. I think that might be enough to get you accepted to Yale. Plus the year of work experience at a think tank can only help your resume.

The shot at Yale alone is enough to retake (assuming you don't get off the waitlist). It is THE option if you want academia. Everywhere else will give you a shot, but nothing will compare to Yale.

[09042014]

What's your backup plan?

I say this because it's really a crapshoot. Assuming no PhD, then you not only have to publish you have to engage in the requisite hoop-jumping, top grades > law review > federal circuit or prestigious district court clerkship > federal agency or prestigious biglaw firm. And you have to do this at a time when law schools are laying off or buying out faculty members.

Essentially, if you land around median your first year you are essentially disqualified no matter how many articles you publish during school. Legal academics are some of the biggest prestige-whores in a profession that takes prestige-whoring to new and glorious heights.

Even at Yale like 3 people get in tenure track positions per year.

[beepboopbeep]

Sorry to take so long to respond.

Already have research pending publication (my guess is 1-2 more peer revisions out from publication) in what I am more or less interested in; there is not a specific school that is superior in said field.

I'm aware of the current hiring model where the average amount of experience since law school is about 2 years; I would rather have more time between beginning legal work and teaching but yes to the posters here I recognize that that is an uncommon path.

The real question is on job prospects coming from either school and whether or not the Leiter rankings represent self selection or actual differences in job prospects.

With publication on the table, you might be one of the people with a semi-realistic chance to pull it off. Realistic meaning like, 1% chance, of course. There's someone in my class with a Chicago Anthro Ph.D and publications, and even she is not staking everything on academia. FWIW I know of someone who just got hired at Cal Western - this person graduated magna at HLS, clerked on a CoA, and was a Bigelow fellow. That's the level of competition even for lower-ranked schools. http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblaw ... eport.html is helpful.

I would definitely try to bump up a few points and reapply next cycle. You should be getting more with those stats, especially if you can get 2-3 more LSAT points. Again FWIW, multiple professors have stressed the importance of "top 10" schools for legal hiring (I guess they don't go by T14). Whether their opinion means much is debatable, but these are the people doing the hiring.

[jbagelboy]

Yale if you want even a shot in the dark.

NYU better than cornell for this though, but we're talking infinitesimal variations of basically no chance

Have you considered getting a ph.d, or doing a joint program?

[abl]

A couple thoughts (from someone who graduated from law school several years ago and has strongly considered academia):

1. School pedigree matters. Law schools care about pedigree, and where you went to law school will have some impact on where you will teach. That said, I'm not sure how significant the difference between NYU and Cornell is for this. If you were talking Yale and GW, that would be a different question.

2. School pedigree matters. It will impact the internships and externships that you get in law school, what clerkships you get out of law school, the job that you ultimately end up in for several years before getting on the academia track, and the fellowship/VAP that you will get. All of these things, in turn, are factors considered by hiring committees (much more so fellowships/clerkships/jobs than 1L internships -- but there's somewhat of a cascading effect insofar as a great 1L internship will often lead to a great 2L SA, which will often lead to a great post-law school job, which can lead to a great clerkship...etc).

3. School pedigree matters. Publications are the #1 most important part of your application. A strong publication history > a strong list of credentials just about every single time. That said, most journals do not review blindly, so where you go to school (/ clerk / work / do a fellowship) will have a real impact on where you get published. Now, it's more important to have *good* publications than well-placed placed publications ... but not by much. For example, a HLR-quality piece (placed in a T75 journal) may not trump a T75-quality piece (placed in HLR) -- it's a close call. Therefore, school pedigree (and more importantly, fellowship pedigree) often tangentially significantly impacts publications history. If you have a Climenko (Harvard) teaching fellowship -- something that is going to be significantly easier to land if you've graduated from HYS and have had the accompanying job/clerkship advantages -- you're going to publish significantly better than if you're trying to publish out of a V50 firm (assuming the same quality of articles).

Again, though, I'm not sure how significant the difference between NYU and Cornell is for these purposes. IMO if you have your heart set on academia, it's potentially worth paying a lot extra to maximize your chances out of HYS. It's a gamble, but if this is what you want to do, it may well be a shot worth taking. I'm not sure there are super significant differences outside of the T14 beyond HYS for purposes of academia -- and my sense is that NYU probably underperforms on some of the relevant positions relative to its general ranking and reputation, which makes the difference even slighter than it would be otherwise.

This is all to say that NYU will likely put you in a stronger position for academia than Cornell -- probably noticeably stronger. But your shot out of either school is fairly low and, unlike HYS, I'm not sure that the marginal difference justifies a big chunk of dough. It's my opinion that the perils of debt for a HYS or T6 (or even T14) grad are somewhat overstated on this board -- but 100k is a lot for a pretty dinky change in probability in an outcome that is unlikely at either school.

[ph14]

Sorry to take so long to respond.

Already have research pending publication (my guess is 1-2 more peer revisions out from publication) in what I am more or less interested in; there is not a specific school that is superior in said field.

I'm aware of the current hiring model where the average amount of experience since law school is about 2 years; I would rather have more time between beginning legal work and teaching but yes to the posters here I recognize that that is an uncommon path.

The real question is on job prospects coming from either school and whether or not the Leiter rankings represent self selection or actual differences in job prospects.

With publication on the table, you might be one of the people with a semi-realistic chance to pull it off. Realistic meaning like, 1% chance, of course. There's someone in my class with a Chicago Anthro Ph.D and publications, and even she is not staking everything on academia. FWIW I know of someone who just got hired at Cal Western - this person graduated magna at HLS, clerked on a CoA, and was a Bigelow fellow. That's the level of competition even for lower-ranked schools. http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblaw ... eport.html is helpful.

I would definitely try to bump up a few points and reapply next cycle. You should be getting more with those stats, especially if you can get 2-3 more LSAT points. Again FWIW, multiple professors have stressed the importance of "top 10" schools for legal hiring (I guess they don't go by T14). Whether their opinion means much is debatable, but these are the people doing the hiring.

Another important point is your area of interest (if you are interested in something specifically). Becoming a constitutional law professor is incredibly difficult. Other public law fields are extremely difficult. Private law fields are also very hard to land positions in, but not nearly to the degree of the public law fields.

If you to want to write about LGBT rights and the latest SCOTUS decisions in Windsor and DOMA, well, there are about 10,000 other professors and students who are also interested. It'll be hard to convince anyone you have anything new to bring to the table. If you're interested in writing, say, about a private law field, well, then there might only be 9,000 other professors and students interested.

[buffalo_]

Just FWIW, I would say NYU is probably the 4th or 5th best at placing in academia. They usually place much better than the rest of the T14 and CLS. Its 1.Y 2.H/S 4.Chi/NYU. They actually have a nice program dedicated to academia and preparing you for what you need to do post LS to be in a position for academia. But it still doesn't come close to the T3, and certainly not close to Yale. Your best and most realistic shot is Yale.

I get that everyone will say it is hard and improbable no matter where you go, and this is true. But the reason for that I believe is strongly influenced by self selection. Probably 75% of students go in with no real interest in academia. And it's a field you can't stumble into, you need to go for it from the beginning. So that's a huge population that will never even try. Then you also need to consider a good portion of those who are left, might be interested but don't end up dedicating enough time to publish or are courted by the relative ease and high pay of BigLaw. It is still VERY difficult to do, but I think that is mostly because there are so few positions, not because there is so much that there are hoards of competitors lining up.

TL;DR - NYU is pretty good compared to other T14. If you are committed it is probably much more within reach than the number suggest, but you still probably need to go to Yale or Harvard or Stanford to have a tangible chance.

[abl]

Just FWIW, I would say NYU is probably the 4th or 5th best at placing in academia. They usually place much better than the rest of the T14 and CLS. Its 1.Y 2.H/S 4.Chi/NYU. They actually have a nice program dedicated to academia and preparing you for what you need to do post LS to be in a position for academia. But it still doesn't come close to the T3, and certainly not close to Yale. Your best and most realistic shot is Yale.

I get that everyone will say it is hard and improbable no matter where you go, and this is true. But the reason for that I believe is strongly influenced by self selection. Probably 75% of students go in with no real interest in academia. And it's a field you can't stumble into, you need to go for it from the beginning. So that's a huge population that will never even try. Then you also need to consider a good portion of those who are left, might be interested but don't end up dedicating enough time to publish or are courted by the relative ease and high pay of BigLaw. It is still VERY difficult to do, but I think that is mostly because there are so few positions, not because there is so much that there are hoards of competitors lining up.

TL;DR - NYU is pretty good compared to other T14. If you are committed it is probably much more within reach than the number suggest, but you still probably need to go to Yale or Harvard or Stanford to have a tangible chance.

I may have been wrong re NYU's relative strength in academia. I stand by the rest of my post, however.

[buffalo_]

I may have been wrong re NYU's relative strength in academia. I stand by the rest of my post, however.

Did not mean to call out your post at all. Sorry if it came out that way. I completely agree with your analysis. I think NYU's Furman Academic Scholar's Program is still relatively new and unknown. Just wanted to let OP know about it.

Also, OP, if you did not apply to NYU's named scholarship for academia, you should reapply and apply directly to that. NYU for free, with a program dedicated to help you pursue academia is a great option for you.

[billydaduck]

I wouldn't have thought NYU could arguably be the 4th or 5th best for tenure track teaching. I had absolutely no idea going into it that NYU had a named scholarship for academia; admittedly when I first applied NYU was not my first or second choice and so I must confess I did not research its offerings as much as I should have.

I have considered getting a PhD or a joint degree program; it would be in economics or mathematics. I am generally averse to the idea of 2-4 more years of schooling but I realize that such a degree would be helpful especially at top schools.

[ph14]

NYU also has the Furman fellowship, which is a good position to get for someone interested in legal academia.

[buffalo_]

NYU also has the Furman fellowship, which is a good position to get for someone interested in legal academia.

^This is the one I was talking about.

I think they only give one or two a year though. But you seem like an especially competitive candidate for it.

[ph14]

NYU also has the Furman fellowship, which is a good position to get for someone interested in legal academia.

^This is the one I was talking about.

I think they only give one or two a year though. But you seem like an especially competitive candidate for it.

I don't think anyone could say that to OP until he comes back with 3 years worth of law grades.

http://www.law.nyu.edu/furmanprogram/fu ... hipprogram

Like a post-doctorate program, the Fellowship affords those headed on the academic job market an opportunity to spend a year in residence at the Law School while they prepare to go on the teaching market. Fellows will work on their scholarship and spend time participating in intellectual events such as faculty workshops and colloquia.

Fellows are expected to produce a work of serious scholarship during their time at the Law School. Thus, before applying a candidate should have begun work on a substantial writing project. Fellows will be chosen on the basis of their demonstrated commitment to a scholarly career, the quality and progress of the proposed writing project, and an assessment of their potential for success on the academic market.

Fellows will receive substantial faculty assistance with their project and to prepare them to go on the academic job market, including assignment of a faculty mentor in their subject area and an opportunity to showcase their work in a faculty setting. Academic Fellows receive a stipend as well as subsidized housing, a conference and book allotment, and space to work in the Law School.

Fellowships ordinarily will commence at the beginning of the academic year prior to a candidate going on the job market.

[buffalo_]

NYU also has the Furman fellowship, which is a good position to get for someone interested in legal academia.

^This is the one I was talking about.

I think they only give one or two a year though. But you seem like an especially competitive candidate for it.

I don't think anyone could say that to OP until he comes back with 3 years worth of law grades.

http://www.law.nyu.edu/furmanprogram/fu ... hipprogram

Like a post-doctorate program, the Fellowship affords those headed on the academic job market an opportunity to spend a year in residence at the Law School while they prepare to go on the teaching market. Fellows will work on their scholarship and spend time participating in intellectual events such as faculty workshops and colloquia.

Fellows are expected to produce a work of serious scholarship during their time at the Law School. Thus, before applying a candidate should have begun work on a substantial writing project. Fellows will be chosen on the basis of their demonstrated commitment to a scholarly career, the quality and progress of the proposed writing project, and an assessment of their potential for success on the academic market.

Fellows will receive substantial faculty assistance with their project and to prepare them to go on the academic job market, including assignment of a faculty mentor in their subject area and an opportunity to showcase their work in a faculty setting. Academic Fellows receive a stipend as well as subsidized housing, a conference and book allotment, and space to work in the Law School.

Fellowships ordinarily will commence at the beginning of the academic year prior to a candidate going on the job market.

Sorry maybe I was not talking about that program.

There is a scholarship named the "Furman Academic Scholars Program" which I think is different than the "Furman Academic Fellowship." Scholars = scholarship for 0L; fellowship = job (fellowship job) for LS Grad.

I think OP is competitive for the scholarship.