Harvard vs NYU for national PI Forum

[zazmo2]

Last week I happily submitted my intent to enroll at Harvard and withdrew everywhere else... but NYU responded to my withdrawal with a scholarship increase. I have until May 2 to reconsider!

Harvard would be sticker price. My glittery new NYU scholarship is $30k/year.

Schools: Harvard, NYU
COA: Harvard ~$200k, NYU ~$120k

Financing everything through loans, with no ties anywhere.

Career goals: I want to do national public interest work -- public policy, impact litigation. I'm specifically interested in reproductive justice and LGBTQ rights. I might be interested in a clerkship right after graduation, depending on the advantages of doing so. Ideally I want to work in DC or NYC, at least for a while, though I value the national portability of either school's name. My dream job would be to work for the national ACLU, or potentially a state ACLU or another impact nonprofit.

Other information:
NYU was my dream school in the beginning because of their reproductive justice clinic and public interest focus. When they didn't give me much of a scholarship offer initially, I went to Harvard's ASW and absolutely fell in love. I believe the resources and opportunities in my area of interest are just as strong there, if not stronger.

I'm pretty familiar with the pros and cons of each LRAP/LIPP -- NYU has a much higher cap (80k versus 45k) but Harvard's allows for flexibility in qualifying jobs. I also know about LIPP's lack of government dependence as an advantage. The general consensus on TLS seemed to be that NYU's LRAP is a better outcome for those committed to public interest (like me). This is an important consideration because I definitely plan to use this program. Ultimately, though, I'm happy to live on 45k a year or to pay back hefty loans if it means working in a career I love. I'm not terribly scared of the debt, but I want to go wherever I can maximize my opportunities. That said, I had a full scholarship to undergrad and I've never faced any sort of debt before, so it's hard to assess my own naivety.

Like I said, I've already submitted my intent at Harvard, and I've announced it to family and friends. This NYU scholarship is a curveball that I didn't expect. I'm open to changing my mind if it is clearly the better answer for me. I am unsure and I would love to hear from others!

[twenty]

NYU. Even if all LRAPs go away, PAYE goes extinct, PSLF gets cut entirely, etc. 1,400 a month (standard repayment plan) is about the same amount as you'd pay at H on LIPP. NYU places very, very well in ACLU. Take the money and run.

[ph14]

I vote NYU as well. 200k in debt doesn't make sense if you want to go into PI work.

[didntgo89072014]

Aren't your COA numbers off here? Unless you have outside financing, I think you're closer to 275 at Harvard and 200 at NYU.

[worldtraveler]

The thing is that on a PI salary, you aren't paying back your debt whether it's 100k or 300k. You just won't make enough to do that. So if you are 100% dedicated to going to this field, you need to look into LRAPs and PSLF.

But impact litigation is kind of a unicorn job and a lot of the places that do it want you to have big law experience first, meaning that you should keep your debt down. That means NYU is far better.

And is it the kind of work you want to do, or the name? The ACLU isn't exactly the best place for what you want. Think long and hard whether it's the prestige you're chasing or whether it's the topic of the work. You might not be able to have both.

[zazmo2]

But impact litigation is kind of a unicorn job and a lot of the places that do it want you to have big law experience first, meaning that you should keep your debt down. That means NYU is far better.

But out of NYU, if I spend some time in big law, I will not longer qualify for their LRAP if/when I transition to impact litigation and start making less money. Out of Harvard, I would have the flexibility to gain that experience, pay off some debt, and then transition into LIPP. So it would be Harvard, not NYU, that would be far better in this particular scenario.

And is it the kind of work you want to do, or the name? The ACLU isn't exactly the best place for what you want. Think long and hard whether it's the prestige you're chasing or whether it's the topic of the work. You might not be able to have both.

It's the kind of work -- I want impact litigation as a way to work on gender/sexuality issues, e.g. reproductive justice and LGBTQ rights. ACLU feels like the standard example and they do a lot of this work, but I am by no means attached to the idea of working for the ACLU specifically. Not chasing prestige or money, but definitely chasing the opportunity to make the biggest impact (which could be correlated with prestige).

[twenty]

But impact litigation is kind of a unicorn job and a lot of the places that do it want you to have big law experience first, meaning that you should keep your debt down. That means NYU is far better.

But out of NYU, if I spend some time in big law, I will not longer qualify for their LRAP if/when I transition to impact litigation and start making less money. Out of Harvard, I would have the flexibility to gain that experience, pay off some debt, and then transition into LIPP. So it would be Harvard, not NYU, that would be far better in this particular scenario.

No, because if you "spend some time in biglaw" with an 120k COA, you'll pay off your loans entirely. Also, you don't lose access to NYU's LRAP by doing biglaw, you just only get LRAP benefits for 10 years post graduation. So if you did biglaw for two years and then transitioned (and for some reason decided not to pay off your loans entirely), you'd have to do two years of "uncovered" PAYE for PSLF at the end.

But again, moot point because there is no world where you accomplish your goals but you pay less at Harvard to do so.

EDIT> In fairness, you also asked for opinions on a different thread on whether or not you should pay sticker at Harvard. You were almost universally told that it was a bad idea, yet you decided to try and withdraw from everywhere and attend regardless. Nothing we say is going to make a difference, so stop making threads I guess, pay your seat deposit at H, and have a great life.

[worldtraveler]

But impact litigation is kind of a unicorn job and a lot of the places that do it want you to have big law experience first, meaning that you should keep your debt down. That means NYU is far better.

But out of NYU, if I spend some time in big law, I will not longer qualify for their LRAP if/when I transition to impact litigation and start making less money. Out of Harvard, I would have the flexibility to gain that experience, pay off some debt, and then transition into LIPP. So it would be Harvard, not NYU, that would be far better in this particular scenario.

And is it the kind of work you want to do, or the name? The ACLU isn't exactly the best place for what you want. Think long and hard whether it's the prestige you're chasing or whether it's the topic of the work. You might not be able to have both.

It's the kind of work -- I want impact litigation as a way to work on gender/sexuality issues, e.g. reproductive justice and LGBTQ rights. ACLU feels like the standard example and they do a lot of this work, but I am by no means attached to the idea of working for the ACLU specifically. Not chasing prestige or money, but definitely chasing the opportunity to make the biggest impact (which could be correlated with prestige).

Do you know what impact litigators actually do? Most people who feel passionately about these issues don't really enjoy impact lit work because if you do see results it takes about 20 years, and most of the work is really tedious.

[zazmo2]

In fairness, you also asked for opinions on a different thread on whether or not you should pay sticker at Harvard. You were almost universally told that it was a bad idea, yet you decided to try and withdraw from everywhere and attend regardless. Nothing we say is going to make a difference, so stop making threads I guess, pay your seat deposit at H, and have a great life.

Bit harsh, no? At the time I posted about Harvard, I was in a position where I didn't have any super-compelling alternatives. My $30k scholarship at NYU suddenly changed to a $90k scholarship -- a super-compelling difference, in my opinion. Like I said at the start of this thread, NYU was actually my original dream school. I think I will probably choose NYU... it's just a lot to process when I thought I'd made the plunge to choose Harvard, and I really do value TLS input.

[zazmo2]

Do you know what impact litigators actually do? Most people who feel passionately about these issues don't really enjoy impact lit work because if you do see results it takes about 20 years, and most of the work is really tedious.

I have a rough idea of what impact litigators actually do -- a friend of mine is doing impact litigation related to immigration. I have a general understanding of the downsides of impact lit, and the realities of not seeing immediate change as a result of your work. Nevertheless, I feel that it's what I want to do. I guess it's hard to say with 100% certainty that I'd love it until I get there, but that is true of anything.

[dresden doll]

I do impact lit for a national nonprofit. My advice: go to a school with better loan repayment assistance program because no one is making the ultimate hiring decision based on the prestige differential between HYS and CCN. I went to a CCN and I beat an HYS person for the job I have.

[dresden doll]

Do you know what impact litigators actually do? Most people who feel passionately about these issues don't really enjoy impact lit work because if you do see results it takes about 20 years, and most of the work is really tedious.

Not sure I agree with this. At the minimum, successful impact lit makes a difference to your clients. I have found this gratifying.

With that being said, finding good plaintiffs for impact lit is tedious, difficult and at the times can feel more than a little mercenary.

[worldtraveler]

Do you know what impact litigators actually do? Most people who feel passionately about these issues don't really enjoy impact lit work because if you do see results it takes about 20 years, and most of the work is really tedious.

Not sure I agree with this. At the minimum, successful impact lit makes a difference to your clients. I have found this gratifying.

With that being said, finding good plaintiffs for impact lit is tedious, difficult and at the times can feel more than a little mercenary.

I may just know some particularly bitter ones.

[dresden doll]

Do you know what impact litigators actually do? Most people who feel passionately about these issues don't really enjoy impact lit work because if you do see results it takes about 20 years, and most of the work is really tedious.

Not sure I agree with this. At the minimum, successful impact lit makes a difference to your clients. I have found this gratifying.

With that being said, finding good plaintiffs for impact lit is tedious, difficult and at the times can feel more than a little mercenary.

I may just know some particularly bitter ones.

I mean, I can see that. At any rate, impact lit is def. a unicorn.

TBH, scoring a job at a national nonprofit that does impact lit happens only through (1) lots of luck and (2) an excellent fellowship (think Skadden). Since you really can't plan on either one, your best bet is to simply pick a school that's going to a better job of covering your repayment obligations. And don't worry about 200k vs. 150k or whatever; you're not paying off either figure in less than 10 years on your nonprofit salary so it really shouldn't figure prominently in your decision.

If the choice was between full ride at NYU vs. 200k at Harvard, I'd easily advise NYU but in this instance, the scholarship factor shouldn't control your decision.

[jbagelboy]

NYU!!!!!!!!

[twenty]

Bit harsh, no? At the time I posted about Harvard, I was in a position where I didn't have any super-compelling alternatives. My $30k scholarship at NYU suddenly changed to a $90k scholarship -- a super-compelling difference, in my opinion. Like I said at the start of this thread, NYU was actually my original dream school. I think I will probably choose NYU... it's just a lot to process when I thought I'd made the plunge to choose Harvard, and I really do value TLS input.

Maybe I'm a bit jaded, but the whole "is my happiness worth 250k?" thing was over the top. If you actually pick NYU, good for you -- I still stand by that that's your best choice here.