HLS vs NYU (now with final COA and more info) Forum

[nunumaster]

Decided to make a final thread with all COA figures finalized. I have a few days left to decide. I’m extremely grateful for having ‘won’ the law school admissions game and could have not asked for a better outcome (Yale trolling). Full tuition at NYU and max need based at HLS. All my friends urge me to go to HLS but it’s the lay prestige talking. 0Ls and current students are split on opinion, with the majority leaning towards the full ride the older (and wiser?) they get. My impressions from lurking and from everyone I’ve spoken to, be it young associates or partners, seems to be that money is the way to go. Based on my lack of goals (how can I be sure that I want some prestigious fed gov, international, academia work?) I think the rational answer, based on quantifiable numbers, seems to be NYU is the way to go.

For what it’s worth, I’ve been out of school for a few years and the opportunity cost of lost income and a solid career already, make NYU extremely risk-free.

BUT DAYAM HLS could not be more generous if they tried. My numbers based below use LS22’s spreadsheet and certain assumptions. Please vote and leave your strong opinions and justifications below  Ask me any questions that might provide insight

Assumptions:
1. Not a very high paying job for 1L, so max aid at HLS during 2L. If I get something that pays at NYU, this would make NYU better.
2. 2L SA reduces my grant for HLS in my final year.
3. NYU has not released a budget for 2014-2015 yet so I used last year's but adjusted it for increases based on LS22's formula.

-The schools you are considering:
NYU, Harvard

-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships. Here is a helpful calculator.
Total Net COA NYU = $60,000 (Full tuition scholarship)
Total COA HLS = $142,000 (Max aid at HLS = 35k 1L,2L & 15k 3L

-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
Loans. Total debt at repayment:
NYU = $70K
HLS = $167k

Total of all payments on a 5 year plan:
NYU = $85k (I’ll probably have repaid NYU in less than 5 years if I get big law though)
HLS = $201K

-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
East coast. Will work in NYC most likely in transactional law.

-Your general career goals
Law -> In house/Business

[ph14]

HLS. I'm a HLS 3L. It's hard to beat HLS with a 35k per year scholarship.

[Theopliske8711]

There's quite literally nothing that would make HLS really stand out for you. NYC. Check. Biglaw. Check. I say NYU.

Take money.

[Florence Night]

HLS. I'm a HLS 3L. It's hard to beat HLS with a 35k per year scholarship.

Yes it is. But NYU for 85k total when you want biglaw is one of those things that beats it.

Go to NYU

[middlemarch]

Honestly, you could basically pay off that NYU debt in 2 years with Biglaw, or with a clerkship bonus + 1 year Biglaw. Take NYU, unless you want to go into academia or something.

[kaiser]

HLS. I'm a HLS 3L. It's hard to beat HLS with a 35k per year scholarship.

In a vacuum, sure. But in context of his other options, NYU is the right choice here by a mile. He wants to work biglaw in NYC. NYU is one of the very best schools in the country for that purpose. It is in this respect (biglaw placement in NY) where the differences between HLS and CLS/NYU are truly marginal. And while HLS would still have an edge, in no objective sense would that marginal difference be worth nearly 100K extra.

OP, you will thank your lucky stars in a few years when you have that debt paid off fast. Given your goals at the moment, that extra debt wouldn't be justified.

[jingosaur]

I talked to an HLS grad who's working in transactional law and turned down an NYU full ride and doesn't regret it at all. He had very specific long term career goals which really justified the choice. If you just want a $160k salary and a job in NYC, then take the NYU money. If you have a specific long term career plan, then HLS is definitely worth the extra money.

[Kimikho]

This is just things that I've heard (shrimptoastmasters told me maybe?), but doesn't HLS not have very good transactional classes...as in they don't exist?

0L and not going to HLS warning.

[jingosaur]

This is just things that I've heard (shrimptoastmasters told me maybe?), but doesn't HLS not have very good transactional classes...as in they don't exist?

0L and not going to HLS warning.

shrimptoast said that about INTERNATIONAL LAW.

HLS has more resources for transactional law that any other law school and it's not even close. They have a very strong negotiation program and they have sub-journals for business, negotiation, and mediation.

Also a 0L, but going to HLS and talked to students and professors and went to the ASW.

[kaiser]

I talked to an HLS grad who's working in transactional law and turned down an NYU full ride and doesn't regret it at all. He had very specific long term career goals which really justified the choice. If you just want a $160k salary and a job in NYC, then take the NYU money. If you have a specific long term career plan, then HLS is definitely worth the extra money.

What are his specific long term career goals? (and keep in mind that OP made it pretty clear that he doesn't have any set, specific long term career goals at the moment)

[ph14]

This is just things that I've heard (shrimptoastmasters told me maybe?), but doesn't HLS not have very good transactional classes...as in they don't exist?

0L and not going to HLS warning.

This really couldn't be more incorrect. HLS sends a lot of people into transactional law. Plus, with our large school and faculty size, we have more offerings in a wider variety of areas than many other schools.

I don't know how would could think that, as compared to other law schools, HLS is deficient in one of the areas it sends the most people into and one of the basic and core fields of practice.

[kaiser]

This is just things that I've heard (shrimptoastmasters told me maybe?), but doesn't HLS not have very good transactional classes...as in they don't exist?

0L and not going to HLS warning.

Sounds like nonsense to me

[jingosaur]

I talked to an HLS grad who's working in transactional law and turned down an NYU full ride and doesn't regret it at all. He had very specific long term career goals which really justified the choice. If you just want a $160k salary and a job in NYC, then take the NYU money. If you have a specific long term career plan, then HLS is definitely worth the extra money.

What are his specific long term career goals?

Wants to go in-house at a private equity firm and maybe dabble on the business side.

[ph14]

This is just things that I've heard (shrimptoastmasters told me maybe?), but doesn't HLS not have very good transactional classes...as in they don't exist?

0L and not going to HLS warning.

shrimptoast said that about INTERNATIONAL LAW.

HLS has more resources for transactional law that any other law school and it's not even close. They have a very strong negotiation program and they have sub-journals for business, negotiation, and mediation.

Also a 0L, but going to HLS and talked to students and professors and went to the ASW.

Yes, that's true, though the degree to which it actually matters that a school has transactional Law Resources is probably overstated. You don't need to be on the business law journal to be a business law lawyer, etc.

[Kimikho]

This is just things that I've heard (shrimptoastmasters told me maybe?), but doesn't HLS not have very good transactional classes...as in they don't exist?

0L and not going to HLS warning.

shrimptoast said that about INTERNATIONAL LAW.

HLS has more resources for transactional law that any other law school and it's not even close. They have a very strong negotiation program and they have sub-journals for business, negotiation, and mediation.

Also a 0L, but going to HLS and talked to students and professors and went to the ASW.

Okay I stand (very) corrected, continue on.

[Theopliske8711]

Wants to go in-house at a private equity firm and maybe dabble on the business side.

How would HLS necessarily play in there? I imagine that it offers a safer route to a v10-v20 firm... but is that worth the extra 100K+ debt?

[ph14]

HLS. I'm a HLS 3L. It's hard to beat HLS with a 35k per year scholarship.

In a vacuum, sure. But in context of his other options, NYU is the right choice here by a mile. He wants to work biglaw in NYC. NYU is one of the very best schools in the country for that purpose. It is in this respect (biglaw placement in NY) where the differences between HLS and CLS/NYU are truly marginal. And while HLS would still have an edge, in no objective sense would that marginal difference be worth nearly 100K extra.

OP, you will thank your lucky stars in a few years when you have that debt paid off fast. Given your goals at the moment, that extra debt wouldn't be justified.

Certainly, OP would be justified in picking NYU. I don't think it is necessarily the "right choice here by a mile" given that 0L preferences often change, etc. It's a personal decision about the value of the extra cash versus extra placement power, flexibility, and security of the HLS degree, and not just in his first legal job after graduation.

OP has the max aid that HLS offers. It doesn't get much better than that. This isn't comparing HLS at sticker to NYU full ride. It's comparing HLS with the maximum possible aid to a NYU full ride. I'm not saying either that NYU would be the wrong decision. I'm just saying that, for me at least, it would not be "the right choice here by a mile."

[jingosaur]

Wants to go in-house at a private equity firm and maybe dabble on the business side.

How would HLS necessarily play in there? I imagine that it offers a safer route to a v10-v20 firm... but is that worth the extra 100K+ debt?

Harvard has a giant network with private equity and the bigger PE firms normally go to top firms for its in-house people.

[ph14]

Wants to go in-house at a private equity firm and maybe dabble on the business side.

How would HLS necessarily play in there? I imagine that it offers a safer route to a v10-v20 firm... but is that worth the extra 100K+ debt?

It's not just a straight objective decision as people often say. It depends on particular things such as your risk aversion, time value of money, etc. But an interesting exercise is to go look at associate biographies at the most selective firms in the country. Now, since OP seems to desire NYC corporate work, he might not need any extra placement power of the HLS degree, but it is something to keep in mind in general.

[TooOld4This]

I think everyone who posts in this forum should be required to have a footer that has, at a minimum, the following information. "I am a [0L/law student/graduate] and I have/had/will have [$X] in loans."

[Power_of_Facing]

Take the NYU $$$ and then pursue a joint degree at the Kennedy School for access to the Haahvaad network and its attendant preƒtige.

Why compromise?

0L, t14, will graduate sans debt.

[nunumaster]

NYU is leading with 80% right now. This reaffirms the beliefs I've held and that my original post is perhaps biased towards. I'd love to hear more from the opposition on how HLS can be a better choice for someone like me.

Can HLS be a good place to be for someone who is generally ambitious, rather than specifically ambitious? The feeling I got from my ASW visit was that there is a multitude of resources but they are only as good as you make them to be if you actually know what to pursue and what you're doing.

Let's say I end up at a V10 firm which will give me better exit opps than getting a V100 with NYU. Can the exit opp be justified by paying more now? or will the lack of debt from NYU give me freedom to do what I wish, which would offset all of that.

I don't argue that HLS is giving an amazing deal, but it seems silly to accept it just because I've got the jackpot best deal I possibly can get from there.

Also, there are things to be said about HLS grading system vs NYU and being grade averse. Worth the difference in money?
I have reason to believe I can outperform my numbers based on work experience, but it would be foolish of me to think that I could if I were bottom 30% or something at NYU.

[ph14]

NYU is leading with 80% right now. This reaffirms the beliefs I've held and that my original post is perhaps biased towards. I'd love to hear more from the opposition on how HLS can be a better choice for someone like me.

Can HLS be a good place to be for someone who is generally ambitious, rather than specifically ambitious? The feeling I got from my ASW visit was that there is a multitude of resources but they are only as good as you make them to be if you actually know what to pursue and what you're doing.

Let's say I end up at a V10 firm which will give me better exit opps than getting a V100 with NYU. Can the exit opp be justified by paying more now? or will the lack of debt from NYU give me freedom to do what I wish, which would offset all of that.

I don't argue that HLS is giving an amazing deal, but it seems silly to accept it just because I've got the jackpot best deal I possibly can get from there.

Also, there are things to be said about HLS grading system vs NYU and being grade averse. Worth the difference in money?
I have reason to believe I can outperform my numbers based on work experience, but it would be foolish of me to think that I could if I were bottom 30% or something at NYU.

No, Harvard Law School is not a place for ambitious people. If you don't know what you want to do as an 0L it's just a waste of time to go to HLS, really.

If you are leaning towards NYU with a full tuition scholarship, that is obviously a great option and you can't really go wrong. If you are leaning that way then take it and enjoy having a minimal debt load. It's a great situation to be in.

[nunumaster]

NYU is leading with 80% right now. This reaffirms the beliefs I've held and that my original post is perhaps biased towards. I'd love to hear more from the opposition on how HLS can be a better choice for someone like me.

Can HLS be a good place to be for someone who is generally ambitious, rather than specifically ambitious? The feeling I got from my ASW visit was that there is a multitude of resources but they are only as good as you make them to be if you actually know what to pursue and what you're doing.

Let's say I end up at a V10 firm which will give me better exit opps than getting a V100 with NYU. Can the exit opp be justified by paying more now? or will the lack of debt from NYU give me freedom to do what I wish, which would offset all of that.

I don't argue that HLS is giving an amazing deal, but it seems silly to accept it just because I've got the jackpot best deal I possibly can get from there.

Also, there are things to be said about HLS grading system vs NYU and being grade averse. Worth the difference in money?
I have reason to believe I can outperform my numbers based on work experience, but it would be foolish of me to think that I could if I were bottom 30% or something at NYU.

No, Harvard Law School is not a place for ambitious people.

I think you misunderstood the point of that sentence. I meant if I'm just vague about my aspirations and end up at big law working side by side with NYU students, I don't see the extra debt being justifiable.

[Power_of_Facing]

NYU is leading with 80% right now. This reaffirms the beliefs I've held and that my original post is perhaps biased towards. I'd love to hear more from the opposition on how HLS can be a better choice for someone like me.

Can HLS be a good place to be for someone who is generally ambitious, rather than specifically ambitious? The feeling I got from my ASW visit was that there is a multitude of resources but they are only as good as you make them to be if you actually know what to pursue and what you're doing.

Let's say I end up at a V10 firm which will give me better exit opps than getting a V100 with NYU. Can the exit opp be justified by paying more now? or will the lack of debt from NYU give me freedom to do what I wish, which would offset all of that.

I don't argue that HLS is giving an amazing deal, but it seems silly to accept it just because I've got the jackpot best deal I possibly can get from there.

Also, there are things to be said about HLS grading system vs NYU and being grade averse. Worth the difference in money?
I have reason to believe I can outperform my numbers based on work experience, but it would be foolish of me to think that I could if I were bottom 30% or something at NYU.

No, Harvard Law School is not a place for ambitious people.

I think you misunderstood the point of that sentence. I meant if I'm just vague about my aspirations and end up at big law working side by side with NYU students, I don't see the extra debt being justifiable.

Pretty sure he was just being facetious and/or exasperated by the idea that HLS could be considered at all "bad" for ambitious folks.