Duke $ vs. Texas $$$ Forum

[bkraut1]

I'm in the final hour and need to make a decision ASAP. Looking for advice.

GPA: 3.86
LSAT: 169
COA: Duke ($182,651) vs. Texas ($106,770) - this represents my total debt at graduation
Goals: BigLaw or Fed Clerkship upon graduation (then BigLaw). Not sure if Im a transactional or litigation type. I see pros and cons to both.
Geo'c Perf's/Ties: I don't have strict geographic preferences. I would be cool within living and working in Texas after graduation, but I'm also from NJ and have family ties to NYC and Chicago.

I haven't tried to negotiate $ with either school yet, but I put a seat deposit down at Texas already because the deadline was April 15th and I was admitted to Duke on April 21st. I have to decide by May 9th because that is my deposit deadline for Duke.

Is Duke really $80,000 better than Texas?

Oh, and I'm no going to retake and reapply. I could, since Ive only taken the LSAT twice, but I would really prefer not to, especially since I think I would be happy at Texas and do well there.

[hcrimson2014]

Duke given that you are undecided on neither geography nor on future goals. Going to Duke gives you better options in case you decide to change your mind.

[transferror]

Unless you are dead set on working in Texas, yes Duke is 80k better than UT.

[BigZuck]

I don't think Duke is 80K better than UT for someone wanting TX but I think it's better for you. Wanting big law and having no TX ties makes UT a non-starter here. Why so confident you would have good grades at UT? The student quality at both schools will be about the same.

I would retake/reapply. Let me guess, you're like 23?

[PrideandGlory1776]

Everyone with those numbers got 150k to Cornell. Everyone. Re-take and/or reapply next year.

[WokeUpInACar]

When did you apply? These are shitty options for those numbers.

[bkraut1]

I'm 22, K-JD. I applied pretty late, mid-January. I suppose there is no substantive reason why I think I would perform well oat UT other than the fact that I know would enjoy living there and consequently be happy with my environment. My best friend from college lives in Austin and I know some other friends' relatives from there too, but no I don't have family ties there.

Is not having Texas ties that big a problem for someone (me) wanting BigLaw from UT? My impression was that it wasn't and none of the students I spoke to there really expressed that it was.

Some Duke students have exposed frustration with the fact that it doesn't have a major legal market to feed directly into. Is this a real problem, or does performing at the median or better give you a decent bough chance at NYC BigLaw?

I didn't hear back from Columbia, Stanford, NW or Cornell yet.
WL: Penn, UVA, Michigan
Rejected: Harvard, Berkeley, Chicago

[PrideandGlory1776]

I'm 22, K-JD. I applied pretty late, mid-January. I suppose there is no substantive reason why I think I would perform well oat UT other than the fact that I know would enjoy living there and consequently be happy with my environment. My best friend from college lives in Austin and I know some other friends' relatives from there too, but no I don't have family ties there.

Is not having Texas ties that big a problem for someone (me) wanting BigLaw from UT? My impression was that it wasn't and none of the students I spoke to there really expressed that it was.

Some Duke students have exposed frustration with the fact that it doesn't have a major legal market to feed directly into. Is this a real problem, or does performing at the median or better give you a decent bough chance at NYC BigLaw?

I didn't hear back from Columbia, Stanford, NW or Cornell yet.
WL: Penn, UVA, Michigan
Rejected: Harvard, Berkeley, Chicago

Re-take and re-apply next year your cycle does not come even close to reflecting your credentials maximum value - your GPA/LSAT is worth boatloads don't waste it on two options that totally undersell them you will regret it big-time.

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/balaclava
169/3.91 - 165k at NYU & 60k at Chicago

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/LawBound11
169/3.9 - 60k Chicago 105k UPenn 120k UVA 150k Cornell etc.

Your cycle is sooooo below expected value you're literally losing out on hundreds of thousands of dollars if you don't reapply.

[bkraut1]

I'm 22, K-JD. I applied pretty late, mid-January. I suppose there is no substantive reason why I think I would perform well oat UT other than the fact that I know would enjoy living there and consequently be happy with my environment. My best friend from college lives in Austin and I know some other friends' relatives from there too, but no I don't have family ties there.

Is not having Texas ties that big a problem for someone (me) wanting BigLaw from UT? My impression was that it wasn't and none of the students I spoke to there really expressed that it was.

Some Duke students have exposed frustration with the fact that it doesn't have a major legal market to feed directly into. Is this a real problem, or does performing at the median or better give you a decent bough chance at NYC BigLaw?

I didn't hear back from Columbia, Stanford, NW or Cornell yet.
WL: Penn, UVA, Michigan
Rejected: Harvard, Berkeley, Chicago

Re-take and re-apply next year your cycle does not come even close to reflecting your credentials maximum value - your GPA/LSAT is worth boatloads don't waste it on two options that totally undersell them you will regret it big-time.

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/balaclava
169/3.91 - 165k at NYU & 60k at Chicago

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/LawBound11
169/3.9 - 60k Chicago 105k UPenn 120k UVA 150k Cornell etc.

Your cycle is sooooo below expected value you're literally losing out on hundreds of thousands of dollars if you don't reapply.

I think this overstates it. I transferred after my Freshman year. My graduating GPA is a 3.86, but my LSAC Cum GPA is 3.67. My apologies for not clarifying. Given these numbers, are my options still pretty shitty? My cum GPA will be at/above a 3.7 when I graduate at the end o this semester, which might matter if I were to reapply.

[BigZuck]

Lol, I don't get why you would tell us that your GPA is .2 higher than it is.

What exactly did these UT students say when you asked them about ties? This school is so Texas-centric and only roughly 1/3 of the class gets big law. That to me doesn't signal relative ease for a non-Texan but I haven't gone through OCI yet so my perspective is very limited. Anyway keep in mind that people here are smart and work hard and law school grades can be frustratingly arbitrary at times so finishing toward the top of the class 1L year is no easy feat.

[bkraut1]

Lol, I don't get why you would tell us that your GPA is .2 higher than it is.

What exactly did these UT students say when you asked them about ties? This school is so Texas-centric and only roughly 1/3 of the class gets big law. That to me doesn't signal relative ease for a non-Texan but I haven't gone through OCI yet so my perspective is very limited. Anyway keep in mind that people here are smart and work hard and law school grades can be frustratingly arbitrary at times so finishing toward the top of the class 1L year is no easy feat.

They told me that the overwhelming majority of legal jobs in Texas are pretty much reserved for UT students/graduates so finding summer employment is easier for them than it is for a lot of other top schools. They also said that clerkship opportunities are relatively good from UT, though not as good as from Duke or higher ranked schools b/c of how competitive they are to get. But in terms of BigLaw, I did think more than the top 1/3 of the UT class could get BigLaw. Does the same rough cutoff apply to Duke's BigLaw prospects, or do firms dig deeper into the class?

[Captain Rodeo]

Man, unless you're dead set on going this cycle, I would reapply next cycle and have your apps in at schools the day they open.

Work, get some experience. Save up some money. Take a break from school. Do some things you want to do, and then be thankful you waited and got into some amazing schools (which you did anyway) with money.

It's not going to matter much when you're 44 vs being 43 working at your desk ~20 years from now.

[koval]

Sitting out is the CR.

[bkraut1]

I apologize if this is repetitive. But to recap (and then I will let the thread die and stop annoying everyone):

Duke COA (debt at repayment): $182,072
UT COA (debt at repayment): $101,134 (I think this estimate is low b/c I used '13-'14 data on UT's site)

Also, riding out WLs at Penn, UVA and Michigan.
Rejected from Chicago, Harvard, Berkeley.
Accepted to Vandy (30k/yr scholly), UCLA ($40k/yr scholly), USC ($40k/yr scholly), Wash U (full tuition scholly), Emory ($28k/year scholly, lolz)
Still waiting to hear from Columbia, Cornell, NW, Stanford.

If I was set on going to law school in the fall, which I know is objectively misguided given my situation, would either of these choices be *BAD* decisions to make? For example, I were to reapply as soon as app portals open, should I expect to get into Duke again (and other peer schools)? Should I expect to receive substantially more money from these same schools?

Again, stats if I reapply:
GPA: 3.7 (or slightly above) vs. 3.67 now
LSAT: possible retake, expecting at least 171 vs. 169 (taken it twice already)
Geo Prefs: ties to NJ, NYC and Chicago (older sister lives there & is a NW alum of graduate journalism school). No strict preference for where I work upon graduation.
Goals: BigLaw or Fed Clerk straight out, hopefully lateral into in-house counsel or gov't reg. agency (i.e. SEC)
Other: Grew up in NJ. I am graduating from Rutgers (bachelors in philosophy). I do love Duke and it was one of my top choices. My younger brother (rising soph. in HS wants to go there as well) wants to go to Duke as well so getting the chance to make some connections that might help him out is a soft factor that's important to me.

[Captain Rodeo]

You're not being annoying.


I can't really answer your questions except for this: applying early is advantageous.

While I can't predict your outcomes except by looking at LSN, class profiles, and TLS anecdotes, I'd be surprised if you didn't get into the same schools you have and into some of the ones you're currently WL'd at. Yet, I don't know what schools think about reapplying to their school after being accepted before. I don't think it'd matter at all, IMO

Also, now that retake is an option, people are going to tell you to retake that thing in June.

Do you feel you can do better? A few extra points could make such a massive difference that this may be the best option for you, and at least you have your 169 under your belt.

[bkraut1]

That makes sense.

Yes, I think I could get at least a 171. I was PT-ing at 170-174 with an occasional 169. The fire alarm went off twice and stopped the test in the middle of 2 separate sections when I got the 169. Perhaps the extra few seconds of focus would have been the difference I needed. LSAC include d a letter describing the circumstances of my score, but that probably didn't matter much in admissions. But I did study for 14 months, the last 5-6 of which were very intensive. I'm not positive I could get a 173/174 on test day; I just know that I've done it on PT's (which aren't the same thing of course).

[cron1834]

That makes sense.

Yes, I think I could get at least a 171. I was PT-ing at 170-174 with an occasional 169. The fire alarm went off twice and stopped the test in the middle of 2 separate sections when I got the 169. Perhaps the extra few seconds of focus would have been the difference I needed. LSAC include d a letter describing the circumstances of my score, but that probably didn't matter much in admissions. But I did study for 14 months, the last 5-6 of which were very intensive. I'm not positive I could get a 173/174 on test day; I just know that I've done it on PT's (which aren't the same thing of course).

Sorry for your experience, but these stories absolutely slay me. Is Principal Skinner running some testing sites or something? How are there this many incompetent facilities, every year?

[bkraut1]

That makes sense.

Yes, I think I could get at least a 171. I was PT-ing at 170-174 with an occasional 169. The fire alarm went off twice and stopped the test in the middle of 2 separate sections when I got the 169. Perhaps the extra few seconds of focus would have been the difference I needed. LSAC include d a letter describing the circumstances of my score, but that probably didn't matter much in admissions. But I did study for 14 months, the last 5-6 of which were very intensive. I'm not positive I could get a 173/174 on test day; I just know that I've done it on PT's (which aren't the same thing of course).

Sorry for your experience, but these stories absolutely slay me. Is Principal Skinner running some testing sites or something? How are there this many incompetent facilities, every year?

Yea I was trying to stay calm after the first one. Of course, when we were outside waiting to go back in everyone was just complaining and making it seem like the rest of the test was a waste of time which only perpetuated how ridiculous the situation was. I stayed calm. The 2nd time, though, the dumbs proctor told us to continue taking the test while the alarm was going off. People started freaking and debating with her as if the timer wasn't running, and I was in an arguments section during this which is prob the worst one for this to happen during b/c time management is so crucial. Some kid got caught cheating during this administration as well. Anyway, Im not saying I definitely would have done better under expected circumstances, but the assumption isn't totally unwarranted. I knew I killed the puzzles and reading comp sections so I didn't cancel, but many people told me to.

[Captain Rodeo]

That makes sense.

Yes, I think I could get at least a 171. I was PT-ing at 170-174 with an occasional 169. The fire alarm went off twice and stopped the test in the middle of 2 separate sections when I got the 169. Perhaps the extra few seconds of focus would have been the difference I needed. LSAC include d a letter describing the circumstances of my score, but that probably didn't matter much in admissions. But I did study for 14 months, the last 5-6 of which were very intensive. I'm not positive I could get a 173/174 on test day; I just know that I've done it on PT's (which aren't the same thing of course).

Sorry for your experience, but these stories absolutely slay me. Is Principal Skinner running some testing sites or something? How are there this many incompetent facilities, every year?

Yea I was trying to stay calm after the first one. Of course, when we were outside waiting to go back in everyone was just complaining and making it seem like the rest of the test was a waste of time which only perpetuated how ridiculous the situation was. I stayed calm. The 2nd time, though, the dumbs proctor told us to continue taking the test while the alarm was going off. People started freaking and debating with her as if the timer wasn't running, and I was in an arguments section during this which is prob the worst one for this to happen during b/c time management is so crucial. Some kid got caught cheating during this administration as well. Anyway, Im not saying I definitely would have done better under expected circumstances, but the assumption isn't totally unwarranted. I knew I killed the puzzles and reading comp sections so I didn't cancel, but many people told me to.

Ugh. Dude, this is horrible. Sorry that happened. Glad you didn't cancel.

The argument seems to be even stronger for retake. Register now and get a sweet testing spot around your area and get the 170+ you're capable of.

That's my advice. Decision is yours

[NorCalLaw]

That makes sense.

Yes, I think I could get at least a 171. I was PT-ing at 170-174 with an occasional 169. The fire alarm went off twice and stopped the test in the middle of 2 separate sections when I got the 169. Perhaps the extra few seconds of focus would have been the difference I needed. LSAC include d a letter describing the circumstances of my score, but that probably didn't matter much in admissions. But I did study for 14 months, the last 5-6 of which were very intensive. I'm not positive I could get a 173/174 on test day; I just know that I've done it on PT's (which aren't the same thing of course).

You must retake and reapply. Late application, lower GPA, and lower LSAT than you'll likely have next cycle all point to taking another stab at it. You would be doing yourself a huge disservice if you go in without your strongest possible showing.