Northwestern ($) VS. Cornell ($) VS. UCLA ($$) VS. USC ($$) Forum

[LOK]

Hello everyone,

Long-time lurker here and I was wondering if you guys could help me out with narrowing my choices.

Schools in Consideration (Tuition/Fees/Room & Board/Cost of Living/etc.):
Northwestern: $220K Total COA (before interest)
Cornell: $225K Total COA (before interest)
UCLA: $115K Total COA (before interest)
USC: $100K Total COA (before interest)

Waitlists:
Columbia
NYU
Virginia
Duke

How I'll Be Financing COA:
Pure Loans (no family support, no savings)

Origin:
Born, raised, and grew up in the Bay area. I would like to work in Bay area or SoCal, with greater preference for SoCal because my significant other is also in LA, attending undergrad at a private university in the OC. My family in NorCal is also considering moving down to SoCal within the next 2 years, so I would prefer to stay in LA. I went to USC as an undergrad graduating very recently. I have a decent chunk of loans ($50K) from my undergrad as well (didn't get much financial aid/scholarship; in hindsight, should've gone to a public school instead of an expensive private school).

General Career Goals:
Initially, I wanted to work for any local government legal office within LA/OC area but with the uncertainty of public service loan forgiveness and the extreme competitiveness of even securing that kind of position, I changed my mind. Instead, I'm aiming for LA Biglaw. If I strike out in Biglaw, then my next priority is that the school has a decent LRAP program/decent qualifying job placement in the county government/public sector in So Cal.

LSAT/GPA:
165 (highest LSAT, took 4 miserable times, ineligible for retake)
3.7

USC and UCLA's cost of attendance are both similar, and I was leaning toward UCLA because of slightly higher Biglaw placement than USC (even though they're both roughly about 1/3rd). I went to USC for college so I feel like I already have the Trojan network. Is UCLA worth the extra $15K in that scenario? Northwestern and Cornell would also give me higher chances at Biglaw, but I would have to relocate midwest/east and tack on another $100K+ to my loans.

Btw, all my deadlines are either end of this week or end of next week. Basically, within the next 5-10 days. Any help, advice, criticism would be much appreciated. Thank you!

Edit: 4/24/14
I updated Cornell and Northwestern COA according to their updated 2014-2015 COA.

[transferror]

Tough call. Choose UCLA or USC if you value location more than odds of biglaw. Take Cornell/NU if biglaw odds are more important than being in SoCal.

[francesfarmer]

I don't think UCLA is worth $15k more than USC, but the price differential is small enough that you should go with your preference.

I'm assuming things are very serious with your SO. If that's not really the case, I think the conversation becomes about NU vs. Cornell, not UCLA vs. USC.

[xJD2017x]

You should ask for USC and UCLA for more money.

[LOK]

You should ask for USC and UCLA for more money.

Tried a while ago with UCLA, was unsuccessful. USC raised it $15K already which accounts for the difference. Negotiation process with those schools is over for now.

[francesfarmer]

You should ask for USC and UCLA for more money.

Tried a while ago with UCLA, was unsuccessful. USC raised it $15K already which accounts for the difference. Negotiation process with those schools is over for now.

Have you tried to get UCLA to match?

[LOK]

I don't think UCLA is worth $15k more than USC, but the price differential is small enough that you should go with your preference.

I'm assuming things are very serious with your SO. If that's not really the case, I think the conversation becomes about NU vs. Cornell, not UCLA vs. USC.

Definitely. I was planning on working for a couple years and proposing, but she's willing to wait a few years since we're both still 22. Tough call because she doesn't want to do long-distance.


Francesfarmer, I tried but it didn't work out. They said they couldn't raise offer.

[Jchance]

$15k more may be worth it for USC undergrad + UCLA law.
USC+USC doesnt make much sense.

[lecsa]

I think that's too high COA for both NU and Cornell.

The job prospects out of UCLA and USC are atrocious, so I wouldn't pay a dime to go there.

[WokeUpInACar]

I think that's too high COA for both NU and Cornell.

The job prospects out of UCLA and USC are atrocious, so I wouldn't pay a dime to go there.

lol ok. It's on the high end of what those schools are worth but USC/UCLA are ok at these prices.

[lecsa]

I think that's too high COA for both NU and Cornell.

The job prospects out of UCLA and USC are atrocious, so I wouldn't pay a dime to go there.

lol ok. It's on the high end of what those schools are worth but USC/UCLA are ok at these prices.

I guess, if 30-40% odds of getting a good job are considered okay at these prices and a quarter of your class or more is practically speaking unemployed.

If OP must pick one of these, I'd probably choose NU since it's more versatile than Cornell location wise.

[koval]

I think that's too high COA for both NU and Cornell.

The job prospects out of UCLA and USC are atrocious, so I wouldn't pay a dime to go there.

lol ok. It's on the high end of what those schools are worth but USC/UCLA are ok at these prices.

I guess, if 30-40% odds of getting a good job are considered okay at these prices and a quarter of your class or more is practically speaking unemployed.

If OP must pick one of these, I'd probably choose NU since it's more versatile than Cornell location wise.

Northwestern and Cornell are almost the same school with Cornell having a slightly better big law/clerkship combination. One feeds Chicago the other NYC. Choose which city you want to end up in and go there. Also, when you say before interest are you calculating the interest accrued in school? If not please revise figures because that makes a huge difference.

[NorCalLaw]

I think that's too high COA for both NU and Cornell.

The job prospects out of UCLA and USC are atrocious, so I wouldn't pay a dime to go there.

lol ok. It's on the high end of what those schools are worth but USC/UCLA are ok at these prices.

I guess, if 30-40% odds of getting a good job are considered okay at these prices and a quarter of your class or more is practically speaking unemployed.

If OP must pick one of these, I'd probably choose NU since it's more versatile than Cornell location wise.

USC and UCLA have bad stats in part due to being in the tough CA market. If OP wants to practice in CA, he is not going to have the 55% biglaw chance otherwise expected from NU.

[ucla2017]

I think that's too high COA for both NU and Cornell.

The job prospects out of UCLA and USC are atrocious, so I wouldn't pay a dime to go there.

lol ok. It's on the high end of what those schools are worth but USC/UCLA are ok at these prices.

I guess, if 30-40% odds of getting a good job are considered okay at these prices and a quarter of your class or more is practically speaking unemployed.

If OP must pick one of these, I'd probably choose NU since it's more versatile than Cornell location wise.

USC and UCLA have bad stats in part due to being in the tough CA market. If OP wants to practice in CA, he is not going to have the 55% biglaw chance otherwise expected from NU.

NorCalLaw is right. Do not just look at statistics. Northwestern and Cornell has good BigLaw placement, and better employment in general because of the markets they feed into. California is broke, especially Los Angeles. UCLA and USC has bad employment rates probably because of this. I've talked to numerous attorneys from non-profits, government, and law firms, and the general consensus is to go to a school that you want to practice in. Going to Northwestern or Cornell, and then trying to practice in CA is possible and definitely easier than going to a random school, but going to UCLA or USC would be better if you want to practice in Los Angeles or CA.

If you want to see employment prospects and BigLaw placement for NU or Cornell, you should try to see what percentage of those that go back to California actually get BigLaw jobs. Very few. Go look at BigLaw websites in CA, most are from UCLA/USC/BOALT/STANFORD. Again, don't just look at statistics.

I'll be attending UCLA, and they have a good LRAP program on their own it seems. I would personally pick UCLA because of the area, and it seems UCLA has a bit of a better global and national recognition than USC Law. And you have the Trojan network (which I heard was like being a part of a mafia).

Go to UCLA. (I will also be around the same in debt, and I will still be able to go straight into public interest or government because of LRAP). I am also thinking of BigLaw just so I can pay my debt off quickly, but other than that I will be going straight into pub/gov.

[northwood]

UCLA or USC. For your goals and the costs incurred, it doesn't seem beneficial to go to NW or Cornell.

[californiauser]

NorCalLaw is right. Do not just look at statistics. Northwestern and Cornell has good BigLaw placement, and better employment in general because of the markets they feed into. California is broke, especially Los Angeles. UCLA and USC has bad employment rates probably because of this. I've talked to numerous attorneys from non-profits, government, and law firms, and the general consensus is to go to a school that you want to practice in. Going to Northwestern or Cornell, and then trying to practice in CA is possible and definitely easier than going to a random school, but going to UCLA or USC would be better if you want to practice in Los Angeles or CA.

If you want to see employment prospects and BigLaw placement for NU or Cornell, you should try to see what percentage of those that go back to California actually get BigLaw jobs. Very few. Go look at BigLaw websites in CA, most are from UCLA/USC/BOALT/STANFORD. Again, don't just look at statistics.

I'll be attending UCLA, and they have a good LRAP program on their own it seems. I would personally pick UCLA because of the area, and it seems UCLA has a bit of a better global and national recognition than USC Law. And you have the Trojan network (which I heard was like being a part of a mafia).

Go to UCLA. (I will also be around the same in debt, and I will still be able to go straight into public interest or government because of LRAP). I am also thinking of BigLaw just so I can pay my debt off quickly, but other than that I will be going straight into pub/gov.

Faulty reasoning. How many people from NU and Cornell are actually trying to get jobs in Los Angeles? I'd rather be one of a few Northwestern students at an LA job fair than one of of several hundred USC/UCLA kids all gunning for the same jobs. NU places students in Los Angeles big law every year. I'm not advocating for NU at the price OP is looking at, I just think USC/UCLA at 100k+ is a bad financial decision.

[ucla2017]

NorCalLaw is right. Do not just look at statistics. Northwestern and Cornell has good BigLaw placement, and better employment in general because of the markets they feed into. California is broke, especially Los Angeles. UCLA and USC has bad employment rates probably because of this. I've talked to numerous attorneys from non-profits, government, and law firms, and the general consensus is to go to a school that you want to practice in. Going to Northwestern or Cornell, and then trying to practice in CA is possible and definitely easier than going to a random school, but going to UCLA or USC would be better if you want to practice in Los Angeles or CA.

If you want to see employment prospects and BigLaw placement for NU or Cornell, you should try to see what percentage of those that go back to California actually get BigLaw jobs. Very few. Go look at BigLaw websites in CA, most are from UCLA/USC/BOALT/STANFORD. Again, don't just look at statistics.

I'll be attending UCLA, and they have a good LRAP program on their own it seems. I would personally pick UCLA because of the area, and it seems UCLA has a bit of a better global and national recognition than USC Law. And you have the Trojan network (which I heard was like being a part of a mafia).

Go to UCLA. (I will also be around the same in debt, and I will still be able to go straight into public interest or government because of LRAP). I am also thinking of BigLaw just so I can pay my debt off quickly, but other than that I will be going straight into pub/gov.

Faulty reasoning. How many people from NU and Cornell are actually trying to get jobs in Los Angeles? I'd rather be one of a few Northwestern students at an LA job fair than one of of several hundred USC/UCLA kids all gunning for the same jobs. NU places students in Los Angeles big law every year. I'm not advocating for NU at the price OP is looking at, I just think USC/UCLA at 100k+ is a bad financial decision.

Yes that's what I said (how much is the percent that comes from NU/Cornell to CA that actually get BigLaw jobs?) I have no idea what the percentage is. I know it was about 3-5% of students that come back to CA from these schools. That is all I know. What I do know is if you are under 50% from either of the schools (60% for Cornell), you might be screwed since the goal of these schools is to go to BigLaw. Also, their grade curves are similar (with all four schools). If I was an employer I would rather hire someone from UCLA or USC with a 3.5 (top 30%) than someone from NU or Cornell with a 3.0 (average).

Are there statistics for those coming to CA? And what percentage of those get what type of jobs?

[MikeJD]

NorCalLaw is right. Do not just look at statistics. Northwestern and Cornell has good BigLaw placement, and better employment in general because of the markets they feed into. California is broke, especially Los Angeles. UCLA and USC has bad employment rates probably because of this. I've talked to numerous attorneys from non-profits, government, and law firms, and the general consensus is to go to a school that you want to practice in. Going to Northwestern or Cornell, and then trying to practice in CA is possible and definitely easier than going to a random school, but going to UCLA or USC would be better if you want to practice in Los Angeles or CA.

If you want to see employment prospects and BigLaw placement for NU or Cornell, you should try to see what percentage of those that go back to California actually get BigLaw jobs. Very few. Go look at BigLaw websites in CA, most are from UCLA/USC/BOALT/STANFORD. Again, don't just look at statistics.

I'll be attending UCLA, and they have a good LRAP program on their own it seems. I would personally pick UCLA because of the area, and it seems UCLA has a bit of a better global and national recognition than USC Law. And you have the Trojan network (which I heard was like being a part of a mafia).

Go to UCLA. (I will also be around the same in debt, and I will still be able to go straight into public interest or government because of LRAP). I am also thinking of BigLaw just so I can pay my debt off quickly, but other than that I will be going straight into pub/gov.

Faulty reasoning. How many people from NU and Cornell are actually trying to get jobs in Los Angeles? I'd rather be one of a few Northwestern students at an LA job fair than one of of several hundred USC/UCLA kids all gunning for the same jobs. NU places students in Los Angeles big law every year. I'm not advocating for NU at the price OP is looking at, I just think USC/UCLA at 100k+ is a bad financial decision.

NU might place some in LA but it's not harvard..

[staysha]

Definitely go USC or UCLA, depending on preference. I'd really liked UCLA from what I've seen of it, and that's not a bad price.

[NorCalLaw]

NorCalLaw is right. Do not just look at statistics. Northwestern and Cornell has good BigLaw placement, and better employment in general because of the markets they feed into. California is broke, especially Los Angeles. UCLA and USC has bad employment rates probably because of this. I've talked to numerous attorneys from non-profits, government, and law firms, and the general consensus is to go to a school that you want to practice in. Going to Northwestern or Cornell, and then trying to practice in CA is possible and definitely easier than going to a random school, but going to UCLA or USC would be better if you want to practice in Los Angeles or CA.

If you want to see employment prospects and BigLaw placement for NU or Cornell, you should try to see what percentage of those that go back to California actually get BigLaw jobs. Very few. Go look at BigLaw websites in CA, most are from UCLA/USC/BOALT/STANFORD. Again, don't just look at statistics.

I'll be attending UCLA, and they have a good LRAP program on their own it seems. I would personally pick UCLA because of the area, and it seems UCLA has a bit of a better global and national recognition than USC Law. And you have the Trojan network (which I heard was like being a part of a mafia).

Go to UCLA. (I will also be around the same in debt, and I will still be able to go straight into public interest or government because of LRAP). I am also thinking of BigLaw just so I can pay my debt off quickly, but other than that I will be going straight into pub/gov.

Faulty reasoning. How many people from NU and Cornell are actually trying to get jobs in Los Angeles? I'd rather be one of a few Northwestern students at an LA job fair than one of of several hundred USC/UCLA kids all gunning for the same jobs. NU places students in Los Angeles big law every year. I'm not advocating for NU at the price OP is looking at, I just think USC/UCLA at 100k+ is a bad financial decision.

I agree that NU will probably be slightly above or at least on par with UCLA for LA biglaw jobs, but the question is whether it's $100k better. Given that I can't give an accurate answer on that, I default to suggesting the option which incurs less debt.

The fact remains that UCLA and USC are both struggling with placement, whereas at NU you would probably at least get a job somewhere. It's a tough choice.

[lecsa]

I think that's too high COA for both NU and Cornell.

The job prospects out of UCLA and USC are atrocious, so I wouldn't pay a dime to go there.

lol ok. It's on the high end of what those schools are worth but USC/UCLA are ok at these prices.

I guess, if 30-40% odds of getting a good job are considered okay at these prices and a quarter of your class or more is practically speaking unemployed.

If OP must pick one of these, I'd probably choose NU since it's more versatile than Cornell location wise.

Northwestern and Cornell are almost the same school with Cornell having a slightly better big law/clerkship combination. One feeds Chicago the other NYC. Choose which city you want to end up in and go there. Also, when you say before interest are you calculating the interest accrued in school? If not please revise figures because that makes a huge difference.

Cornell historically is the most regional T-14. I think for non-NYC biglaw at similar cost, I'd pick NU over Cornell.

[LOK]

I'll be attending UCLA, and they have a good LRAP program on their own it seems. I would personally pick UCLA because of the area, and it seems UCLA has a bit of a better global and national recognition than USC Law. And you have the Trojan network (which I heard was like being a part of a mafia).

Go to UCLA. (I will also be around the same in debt, and I will still be able to go straight into public interest or government because of LRAP). I am also thinking of BigLaw just so I can pay my debt off quickly, but other than that I will be going straight into pub/gov.

Yeah, as of now, I'm leaning toward UCLA. Pretty much I'm CA Biglaw or bust. Then if the bust happens, finding a qualifying pub/gov job for LRAP. IMHO, despite the $15K difference between UCLA and USC, the $60,000 LRAP cap at UCLA is more pub/gov friendly than USC's $50,000 LRAP cap. Also having spent 4.5 years at Troy, I think it's time for a change and I'm warming up to exploring the west side of LA.

Thanks a lot everyone for all the input everyone. Really. I'm only receiving limited $30-35K total need-based aid at Cornell and Northwestern, whereas I'm getting 2x or 3x as much scholarship money from UCLA and USC respectively. I definitely understand NU and Cornell have nearly 2X Biglaw numbers than UCLA and USC. I think quality of life though will be better for me in LA, where I have my SO, a strong support group of friends, a solid church, and my community volunteer work that I do to keep me grounded.

[francesfarmer]

Pretty much I'm CA Biglaw or bust. Then if the bust happens, finding a qualifying pub/gov job for LRAP.

PI is not a backup. People gun for PI just like others gun for biglaw because PI is hard to get without demonstrated interest, which you have to show from day 1.