Harvard ($$) vs. Berkeley ($$$$) Forum

[Casiobashio]

Thank you for taking the time to read. When answering the poll, I would appreciate if you could also reply with your reasoning, either in the thread or via personal message.

-The schools you are considering:
Harvard and Berkeley

-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships. --- I used LS22's spreadsheet:
Harvard: $175,000 (generous need-based grant)
Berkeley: $60,000 (full tuition - mostly merit, some need, + living with a family member near campus for very cheap the first year)

-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings:
Loans. My family will be unable to help in any capacity, now or in the future.

-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any):
From New England, personal and family ties to California. Want to start off working in California, can see myself moving out east at some point in the distant future when my parents become elderly. I do not want to work in New York City.

-Your general career goals:
Litigation. Immediately after law school I want to gain the necessary experience to be an effective litigator, whether that be through a firm and/or a clerkship. I am not married to the idea of doing a clerkship, but will apply for one if I have the grades. Long term dream is to do public interest impact litigation. Other less-competitive areas that I am interested in would include legal aid for children or low-income families, or other direct services.

Once my loans are gone and I have gained the experience necessary to accomplish effective legal work, I will always take personally meaningful work over increased income, as long as I can afford food and rent. My parents have made a combined 40-60k my whole life.

Considering that my biggest goals may be difficult to achieve, and I do not want to bid NYC, the brand and network of Harvard seem like they would be helpful. Also, since my personal assets are currently negligible, Harvard's LIPP is made for people from my situation. However, I am nervous to live with burden of debt, and Berkeley is a powerful institution in California, my preferred starting market. I visited many schools this cycle, and eliminated schools in Chicago and NYC. My favorites were Berkeley and Harvard, and I really don't have a "feeling" of which I would like more, so they are equal in that regard.

-Your LSAT/GPA numbers:
177/3.8

-How many times you have taken the LSAT:
Once

When I first started browsing this forum, I must admit that I did not take it seriously. However...now, after months of reading threads this cycle, I am astounded by how much I have learned. Thank you to all of the 'regulars' who take the time to make this a helpful place for applicants.

[radikal_eyes]

I'd go with Berkeley - not sure Harvard is worth 115 K extra given your career aspirations and preferred market.

[Power_of_Facing]

Go to Berkeley. And if not there, please choose Boalt.

You want to work in CA, and Berkeley will enable you to do this sooner and for drastically less money than Harvard.

Whether or not you achieve your longterm goals will depend more on your performance after graduating than where you went to school. And Berkeley won't preclude you from the jobs/clerkships immediately out of law school that can get you where you'd like to be.

[drawstring]

Berkeley seems like the better option given your preferences and the big COA difference.

[3L2014]

I think Harvard is worth the money here

[TooOld4This]

Berkeley. The only thing that remotely might need the prestige Harvard buys is impact litigation. Most people who go into law school thinking they like the sound of impact litigation come out with a different opinion, though. (Impact litigation is generally a slog -- it shares more in common with BigLaw than it does with most other PI.)

At $60k in debt, you have a lot of options. $175k makes some decent golden handcuffs.

[Casiobashio]

Berkeley. The only thing that remotely might need the prestige Harvard buys is impact litigation. Most people who go into law school thinking they like the sound of impact litigation come out with a different opinion, though. (Impact litigation is generally a slog -- it shares more in common with BigLaw than it does with most other PI.)

At $60k in debt, you have a lot of options. $175k makes some decent golden handcuffs.

Thanks for the responses. Any concern about ability to move east 10-15 years down the road? My gut agrees with the other post above me that it won't matter much at all as long as I get good work experience and work hard in Cali.

As a first gen college student who got I think max aid at Harvard, it is tough to look away. It's scary that my COA is just about the lowest you can get from Harvard without family paying for it.

I agree with the sentiment that impact litigation may just sound good to me now. I guess my only concern with berkeley is realizing part way that I want to pursue this competitive path and am now up against HYS top students.

[drawstring]

After 10-15 years, I think your WE would play a far greater role in your career outcomes than your school would.

[manu6926]

...

[ph14]

Berkeley at $60,000 is certainly an attractive option, but I think you would also be justified in taking HLS with a "generous need-based" grant.

[Power_of_Facing]

Berkeley at $60,000 is certainly an attractive option, but I think you would also be justified in taking HLS with a "generous need-based" grant.

Curious to read the reasoning behind the above...

What career opportunities/benefits are available at Harv (and not Berk) that would justify taking on $115,000.00 more in debt? Are these perceptible in any way beyond employment stats? And I'm not trying to pick an argument with you, ph14, I'm just interested in the way you perceive the value of your school relative to others.

[jbagelboy]

Berkeley at that price is great. It'll get you to CA and since you aren't from there, developing ties through school will definitely help.

Most Harvard students in big law are headed NYC, which you aren't into.

[Redamon1]

Any concern about ability to move east 10-15 years down the road? My gut agrees with the other post above me that it won't matter much at all as long as I get good work experience and work hard in Cali.

If you haven't already, you should attend Berkeley's admitted students receptions in one of the big cities on the East Coast. It helped me pick B to know that many grads who wanted to head back east could (and many regularly do). If you missed the receptions, you can ask the admissions office to put you in touch with a few Boalt grads in your fields and East-Coast cities of interest.

[El Principe]

Stay in the West bro.... the East Coast is TTT.

[Casiobashio]

Berkeley at $60,000 is certainly an attractive option, but I think you would also be justified in taking HLS with a "generous need-based" grant.

Haha this is my favorite post... I obviously agree that they are both attractive and justifiable options, which is why this was worthy of a thread in the forum titled "Choosing a law school". I was more looking for reasons why somebody in my position and with my goals might choose one over the other. Particularly I am hoping for feedback from current students or alumni from Harvard and Berkeley. Based on your post history, you are a Harvard student, so I would certainly appreciate your advice. Thanks!

[Casiobashio]

Berkeley at that price is great. It'll get you to CA and since you aren't from there, developing ties through school will definitely help.

Most Harvard students in big law are headed NYC, which you aren't into.

While I am not from California, the majority of my extended family does live there. However, since I am the first person in my family to go to college, I have absolutely zero legal contacts in any market. I presumed that going to Harvard would be fine for California just due to the power of the school, and that Berkeley would of course be great to establish ties and also experience externships during school.

Do the "ties" needed differ for big law vs PI vs boutiques vs fellowships?

[Casiobashio]

If you haven't already, you should attend Berkeley's admitted students receptions in one of the big cities on the East Coast. It helped me pick B to know that many grads who wanted to head back east could (and many regularly do). If you missed the receptions, you can ask the admissions office to put you in touch with a few Boalt grads in your fields and East-Coast cities of interest.

Thanks for the advice. I will look into this.

All...Here is my current thought process, wanted to see what you all think...
In my mind Berkeley and Harvard are peers for northern california, but that if I choose to move east 10-15 years from now Harvard is a more portable school (though work experience matters much more). Also, if I am in the top 10% of my class at both schools, I would have more options for litigation and PI such as clerkships and PI fellowships coming from Harvard. Are these assumptions correct?

[Power_of_Facing]

If you haven't already, you should attend Berkeley's admitted students receptions in one of the big cities on the East Coast. It helped me pick B to know that many grads who wanted to head back east could (and many regularly do). If you missed the receptions, you can ask the admissions office to put you in touch with a few Boalt grads in your fields and East-Coast cities of interest.

Thanks for the advice. I will look into this.

All...Here is my current thought process, wanted to see what you all think...
In my mind Berkeley and Harvard are peers for northern california, but that if I choose to move east 10-15 years from now Harvard is a more portable school (though work experience matters much more). Also, if I am in the top 10% of my class at both schools, I would have more options for litigation and PI such as clerkships and PI fellowships coming from Harvard. Are these assumptions correct?

Again, 10 to 15 years out of school, the institution from whence came your degree is going to be far less relevant than the work you've done in your career. Berkeley will not hold you back; it is a world-class law school. 115k in student debt from Harvard could become your golden garrote.

[jbagelboy]

Berkeley at that price is great. It'll get you to CA and since you aren't from there, developing ties through school will definitely help.

Most Harvard students in big law are headed NYC, which you aren't into.

While I am not from California, the majority of my extended family does live there. However, since I am the first person in my family to go to college, I have absolutely zero legal contacts in any market. I presumed that going to Harvard would be fine for California just due to the power of the school, and that Berkeley would of course be great to establish ties and also experience externships during school.

Do the "ties" needed differ for big law vs PI vs boutiques vs fellowships?

Yes, biglaw recruiters care about ties to avoid flight risk and give offers to students who will actually accept. Local PI organizations want someone who has toes to the community to show commitment and cultural knowledge, and more importantly these networks are typically locally grown and require more on the ground service/network, which Berkeley would serve better IMO. But the point is that Boalt feeds into the CA market so your prior ties become less crucial. H students can make it to California without strong ties, but you're paying a premium for similar opportunities in SF. If you get into a dicey bottom third spot at H you'll have to bid NYC heavy (which is where most Harvard grads in biglaw go). Then again, bottom third at Cal would be more dangerous for biglaw generally, but California markets will still be "local" enough to access and with your profile it's unlikely you'll land at that range in the class.

[worldtraveler]

Just fyi...your need based aid is probably not guaranteed for all 3 years, especially if you work at firms during the summer. Don't count on that repeating all 3 years.

And after CA, NY and DC are the #2 and #3 destinations for Boalt grads, so it's not as though you're confined to the west coast forever. If anything it's far easier to go from CA to east than the reverse.

[Casiobashio]

Just fyi...your need based aid is probably not guaranteed for all 3 years, especially if you work at firms during the summer. Don't count on that repeating all 3 years.

And after CA, NY and DC are the #2 and #3 destinations for Boalt grads, so it's not as though you're confined to the west coast forever. If anything it's far easier to go from CA to east than the reverse.

Thanks. For Berkeley it is almost all merit.

[Casiobashio]

Just bumped into my old thread. Thanks for the input, I stopped checking TLS after deciding. Heading to Berkeley in a few weeks.

[igo2northwestern]

Edit: my bad didn't see note that OP committed. Great choice, and best wishes.

[jbagelboy]

Just bumped into my old thread. Thanks for the input, I stopped checking TLS after deciding. Heading to Berkeley in a few weeks.

Congrats! Good luck