YLS v Butler v UVA Forum

[achilles470]

I have read through nearly every YHS v full-ride CCN thread, but unfortunately that is not my situation.

Am pretty debt-averse but also thrilled that I got into Yale. In terms of where I actually want to be for three years, Yale wins by a long shot. However, I hate the idea of paying off over 200k in debt and if I had a Hamilton or Ruby I'd take it immediately. The final COA will be financed through loans, savings & SA $$. Here are my options:

Yale (will receive need-based aid of around $30-40k, est. COA $240-250,000)
Columbia (got Butler, est. COA $188,000)
NYU (got half-ride Dean's Scholly, will revise if it increases, est. COA $188,000)
Chicago (COA currently at around $215,000 but still praying a Ruby drops in my lap)
UVA (got 120k Dean's Scholly, est. COA $116,000)

My goals: would love to clerk & work in Biglaw w/possible exit to BigGov or boutique litigation. It's hard for me to precisely quantify how much my desire to clerk is worth (for ex. I'd take a Hammy and happily miss out on YLS's clerkship rate). Also curious to explore other fields, like tax law.

Right now I'm leaning Yale, but my question is that if NYU increased their scholarship, how much would I be crazy to turn down given that I will likely end up in Biglaw in some capacity?

[retaking23]

Even if you had a Hamilton or Dillard as alternatives, Yale might still very well be TCR. Congrats and enjoy New Haven.

[jbagelboy]

Meh. I'd do Ruby or Hamilton over Yale too, but it looks like YLS threw you some grants so you arent faced with sticker anyway. Even though your goals are pretty standard, I'd go to Yale for $60k more than CCN here for the added security and no 1L fall grades.

[buffalo_]

Yale is Yale.

[kaiser]

I almost never choose HYS at sticker in these polls, but if the price difference is about 60K, I'd pick Y.

[jk148706]

I almost never choose HYS at sticker in these polls, but if the price difference is about 60K, I'd pick Y.

And it's not Y at sticker

[aboutmydaylight]

250k is to much debt, I'd take UVA if you want DC.

[cotiger]

It's difficult for me to say that going into a quarter million dollars of debt for generic biglaw is a smart move.

The fact that the debt is coming from YALE (!!! omgomg !!!) doesn't change its shittiness.

UVA.

[achilles470]

Thanks for the replies y'all.

[lawschool22]

Given (1) your clerking and government aspirations, (2) the fact that Yale gave you $, and (3) you aren't looking at a full ride at CCN, in this instance I think Yale is tcr.

[cotiger]

Given (1) your clerking and government aspirations, (2) the fact that Yale gave you $, and (3) you aren't looking at a full ride at CCN, in this instance I think Yale is tcr.

Not sure what the fact that Yale gave her a little money has to do with it, it's still a quarter
million of debt. OPs looking at biglaw, which means 5-6 years of that shit show before even getting back to zero. If he was going for academia or some kind of DC PI/Gov thing, then sure. But just for generic biglaw? No way.

[Otunga]

Given (1) your clerking and government aspirations, (2) the fact that Yale gave you $, and (3) you aren't looking at a full ride at CCN, in this instance I think Yale is tcr.

Not sure what the fact that Yale gave her a little money has to do with it, it's still a quarter
million of debt. OPs looking at biglaw, which means 5-6 years of that shit show before even getting back to zero. If he was going for academia or some kind of DC PI/Gov thing, then sure. But just for generic biglaw? No way.

I like UVA for that price. Score in the top 15% and you have a chance at a fed clerkship. Biglaw placement is strong enough to justify not picking Yale for significantly more debt. And I'd take NYU over Yale if I simply wanted NYC biglaw, but not over UVA here. 116000 is very reasonable and you could pay off a significant chunk in 3 years of biglaw.

[lawschool22]

Given (1) your clerking and government aspirations, (2) the fact that Yale gave you $, and (3) you aren't looking at a full ride at CCN, in this instance I think Yale is tcr.

Not sure what the fact that Yale gave her a little money has to do with it, it's still a quarter
million of debt. OPs looking at biglaw, which means 5-6 years of that shit show before even getting back to zero. If he was going for academia or some kind of DC PI/Gov thing, then sure. But just for generic biglaw? No way.

Maybe I misread the post. If OP wants biglaw I agree. If OP wants clerkship and fed gov, go Yale.

[suzige]

GO TO YALE.
thank us later.

[cotiger]

Given (1) your clerking and government aspirations, (2) the fact that Yale gave you $, and (3) you aren't looking at a full ride at CCN, in this instance I think Yale is tcr.

Not sure what the fact that Yale gave her a little money has to do with it, it's still a quarter
million of debt. OPs looking at biglaw, which means 5-6 years of that shit show before even getting back to zero. If he was going for academia or some kind of DC PI/Gov thing, then sure. But just for generic biglaw? No way.

Maybe I misread the post. If OP wants biglaw I agree. If OP wants clerkship and fed gov, go Yale.

The only solid thing in there is biglaw. "Possible" exit to "federal gov". So OP is going to be paying off loans in full, not utilizing COAP. "Lit Boutique" is other possible desired exit. In addition to clerking, these are just generalized concepts that sound good to 0Ls. OP does not have clearly defined goals where the extra debt can be justified, IMO.

[DrStudMuffin]

It's difficult for me to say that going into a quarter million dollars of debt for generic biglaw is a smart move.

The fact that the debt is coming from YALE (!!! omgomg !!!) doesn't change its shittiness.

UVA.

I'm all about generally minimizing debt, but it's a sign that the pendulum has swung too far when you're advising someone to take UVA for a little over 100k less than Yale. That's just dumb. So OP adds a few years to repayment - his/her career doesn't end 5 years after graduation.

It's like everyone has forgotten that people still regularly strike out from the lower T-14.

Go to Yale.

[84651846190]

Go to Yale.

[cotiger]

It's difficult for me to say that going into a quarter million dollars of debt for generic biglaw is a smart move.

The fact that the debt is coming from YALE (!!! omgomg !!!) doesn't change its shittiness.

UVA.

I'm all about generally minimizing debt, but it's a sign that the pendulum has swung too far when you're advising someone to take UVA for a little over 100k less than Yale. That's just dumb. So OP adds a few years to repayment - his/her career doesn't end 5 years after graduation.

It's like everyone has forgotten that people still regularly strike out from the lower T-14.

Go to Yale.

$130,000 plus interest is a lot of money. Most people don't last more than a couple of years in biglaw. We're talking about the difference between being debt free after 2.5 years from UVA vs still having massive loans (around $135,000) after 3 years from ***YALE***.

I could see it being worth it if OP had goals that were made significantly easier by YLS. But he doesn't; OPs goals are the exact same as the majority of the posters on this board: biglaw for a while and then exiting into something nicer.

Sure, Yale buys you a little more safety, but IMO the coverage of an extra 20% at the bottom of the class isn't worth the guaranteed extra debt.

[TooOld4This]

It's difficult for me to say that going into a quarter million dollars of debt for generic biglaw is a smart move.

The fact that the debt is coming from YALE (!!! omgomg !!!) doesn't change its shittiness.

UVA.

I'm all about generally minimizing debt, but it's a sign that the pendulum has swung too far when you're advising someone to take UVA for a little over 100k less than Yale. That's just dumb. So OP adds a few years to repayment - his/her career doesn't end 5 years after graduation.

It's like everyone has forgotten that people still regularly strike out from the lower T-14.

Go to Yale.

No, it's a sign that law schools have lost touch with reality in assessing what their degree is worth. At $250,000, Yale is a luxury good. The sad truth is that not everyone is in the same position to acquire luxury goods. That much debt is crushing, even with the best outcome at Yale. Yale buys you a better chance at unicorn jobs, and the luxury of being able to take longer to figure out what you want to do with your degree. It is also an insurance policy against the worst outcomes at the rest of the T14. But that insurance policy is too expensive. The downside of the crushing debt is a guaranteed outcome, while the risk at UVA is not even the most likely outcome.

Maybe you think UVA is still too expensive at $130,000. That doesn't make Yale at $250,000 rational.

[Trout et al]

250k debt at 8% interest is too much for law school. Even if you will be less stressed about grades at Yale, you will still be stressed about having a mortgage-sized, non-dischargeable liability. Paying that much for a piece of paper is questionable at best.

[AntipodeanPhil]

250k debt at 8% interest is too much for law school. Even if you will be less stressed about grades at Yale, you will still be stressed about having a mortgage-sized, non-dischargeable liability. Paying that much for a piece of paper is questionable at best.

Yale student debt is hardly a "non-dischargeable liability." If you don't make much money, Yale pays the loan back for you - so long as you are working full time.

Also, this person wants biglaw. One point I think people often underestimate is that you have a much better chance of getting a top firm from HYS (especially Y&S). The exit options really are significantly better at a V10 with a degree from HYS, vs. being at a V50 with a degree from UVA (and yes, of course you can get a V10 from UVA, it's just less likely).

[TooOld4This]

250k debt at 8% interest is too much for law school. Even if you will be less stressed about grades at Yale, you will still be stressed about having a mortgage-sized, non-dischargeable liability. Paying that much for a piece of paper is questionable at best.

Yale student debt is hardly a "non-dischargeable liability." If you don't make much money, Yale pays the loan back for you - so long as you are working full time.

Also, this person wants biglaw. One point I think people often underestimate is that you have a much better chance of getting a top firm from HYS (especially Y&S). The exit options really are significantly better at a V10 with a degree from HYS, vs. being at a V50 with a degree from UVA (and yes, of course you can get a V10 from UVA, it's just less likely).

I realize you are currently attending Harvard and really want this to be true, but for the vast majority it is not. V10 is only a "thing" in very specific circles and only gives you an edge in very specific types of law. Practicing attorneys know what is prestigious within their own fields, and to the degree they care about prestige, they use those yardsticks. The number of jobs where a UVA/V50 grad will be screened out and a Harvard V10 will sail through is extremely small and unlikely to be worth the debt.

I have never been in a hiring meeting for a non-entry level job where any decision has come to HYS vs another T14.

Also, if you took out $200,000 of debt, please come back and tell us how that is going in 5 years. I don't know too many people who took out near sticker debt , including HYS, who would remake the same decision again.

[Instinctive]

I just chose Yale over the Ruby.


Have you received an actual Financial Aid offer from Yale yet? I had estimates on mine, but the actual offer was much better. They basically said that they don't want anyone taking more than 40k in loans a year and when they gave me my fin aid package, it reflected that sentiment.

Hope that helps.

[kaiser]

250k debt at 8% interest is too much for law school. Even if you will be less stressed about grades at Yale, you will still be stressed about having a mortgage-sized, non-dischargeable liability. Paying that much for a piece of paper is questionable at best.

Yale student debt is hardly a "non-dischargeable liability." If you don't make much money, Yale pays the loan back for you - so long as you are working full time.

Also, this person wants biglaw. One point I think people often underestimate is that you have a much better chance of getting a top firm from HYS (especially Y&S). The exit options really are significantly better at a V10 with a degree from HYS, vs. being at a V50 with a degree from UVA (and yes, of course you can get a V10 from UVA, it's just less likely).

When I was a 0L/student, I may have also thought this was true. But now that I am a grad, I can tell you that it isn't. HYS may tell you this in order to get you to attend, or you may convince yourself of this in order to justify the debt, but in reality, you are overstating something that isn't quite so monumental in practice. Of course, I don't blame you for thinking this, and I likely would have agreed with you while I was a 0L/student.

The overwhelming consensus from grads is that, if biglaw is your goal, CCN, or a lower T10 with big scholarship is FAR superior to HYS at sticker (though of course there are circumstances outside the biglaw context where HYS will be the right choice, even if the cost is far greater than other options)

[AntipodeanPhil]

I realize you are currently attending Harvard and really want this to be true, but for the vast majority it is not. V10 is only a "thing" in very specific circles and only gives you an edge in very specific types of law. Practicing attorneys know what is prestigious within their own fields, and to the degree they care about prestige, they use those yardsticks. The number of jobs where a UVA/V50 grad will be screened out and a Harvard V10 will sail through is extremely small and unlikely to be worth the debt.

Of course your exit options are going to largely depend on the practice area you join and the specific work you end up doing, and V50 firms have some practice areas that are as good or better than the same practice areas at V10 firms. But V10 firms obviously have more top practice areas, and better work overall. And maybe this guy will want a career in one of the "specific circles" in which simply have been at a V10 counts.

Sure, you can make this personal and attack me for having conflicted motivations, but -- given the tone of your response -- that sounds like the pot calling the kettle black.

The overwhelming consensus from grads is that, if biglaw is your goal, CCN, or a lower T10 with big scholarship is FAR superior to HYS at sticker (though of course there are circumstances outside the biglaw context where HYS will be the right choice, even if the cost is far greater than other options)

Sure, the overwhelming consensus amongst grads who got the biglaw jobs they wanted.

I don't know a single person at my HYS that wanted biglaw and didn't get it, and I know a lot of people. Everyone I know who wanted NYC biglaw ended up at a V15.