Another What Should I Choose Thread. Please help!! Forum

[2014jdapplicant]

Hello TLS users,

Long time lurker and appreciator of the valuable advice on this board. I've come to basically the end of my cycle and could use some help.

I'm currently on the waitlist at H and in at two of CCN. In an ideal world, I'd like to do a federal clerkship and work in big law for 4 years or so to pay off debt, before trying for a position in the federal government (DOJ, State Dept, etc.). If I end up not having the grades or the luck to make this happen, I would be satisfied working in big law for a few years before figuring out what's next.

For CCN - I have one scholarship at $25k total and another at $35k total, with negligible difference in cost of attending overall. With either option, the combination of scholarship and savings would leave me graduating with roughly $150 - 165k of debt.

Stats are GPA of 3.6x and LSAT of 176+, but the high LSAT was a retake some months after I'd already applied to H and CCN. H waitlist came down a few days ago. I have a couple years of work experience combined with strong but not unique or exceptional softs.

My question to you fellow users is should I take one of the CCN offers (after trying to negotiate for more money, etc.) or wait a cycle and apply early with the hope of getting HLS or a larger scholarship given the higher LSAT. I believe HLS gives me a greater chance of accomplishing long term goals, while working another year in my current job would allow me to save more money. But I'm worried about applying again next cycle, not getting HLS (which seems like a crapshoot at best with my stats), and also being rejected by the 2 CCNs I have this year.

Any thoughts, advice, or reality check would really help. Thank you!

[2014jdapplicant]

Sorry, should have added that I am planning to ride out waitlist at H to see what happens, and also planning to continue working on upping the scholarship money already received.

Thanks!

[El Principe]

Idk why you concealed the names of the school, as if it could out you or something. Not that it particularly matters, because their employment numbers are close enough as it is. I mean, it would help to know which schools in case you don't want to practice in NYC. As it is, I just say go to the one you clicked with the most during ASW/visits, and if all is equal still, then choose the cheaper one.

[aboutmydaylight]

So you're choosing between Columbia and NYU?

[2014jdapplicant]

So you're choosing between Columbia and NYU?

Yup, sorry, wasn't trying to be purposefully vague. Guess I was just overly paranoid.

[rad lulz]

So you're choosing between Columbia and NYU?

Yup, sorry, wasn't trying to be purposefully vague. Guess I was just overly paranoid.

Those scholarships are piddling in light of tuition and cost of living

Any big $ at T 14s?

[2014jdapplicant]

No word yet from Penn or Berk, 75k from Duke which I'm trying use for negotiation. WL at UVA

[2014jdapplicant]

Idk why you concealed the names of the school, as if it could out you or something. Not that it particularly matters, because their employment numbers are close enough as it is. I mean, it would help to know which schools in case you don't want to practice in NYC. As it is, I just say go to the one you clicked with the most during ASW/visits, and if all is equal still, then choose the cheaper one.

I enjoyed both ASWs and I think either school would be phenomenal but if I'm not going to get substantially more than say 40k from either this year, would not accepting an offer from them and applying again make me more or less competitive for more money? No difference? And also I'd be willing to take the risk of a similar outcome at one or both if it meant playing for another shot at HLS

[jbagelboy]

Would you get need based aid from H? Sounds like you'd just have more debt there then CN.. Not sure why it would make sense to sit out

The cost difference is small enough that this one can go down to preference b/t the schools. Your goals are pretty standard for prestige gunning law students.. Either school will set you up well. I'd do CLS cause I think overall placement is slightly higher but both are solid

[rad lulz]

No word yet from Penn or Berk, 75k from Duke which I'm trying use for negotiation. WL at UVA

Wait for $ from Penn and Berk but right now I'd go to Duke instead of doing $270k debt at CN

[2014jdapplicant]

Would you get need based aid from H? Sounds like you'd just have more debt there then CN.. Not sure why it would make sense to sit out

The cost difference is small enough that this one can go down to preference b/t the schools. Your goals are pretty standard for prestige gunning law students.. Either school will set you up well. I'd do CLS cause I think overall placement is slightly higher but both are solid

Would probably get some but not a ton of need based assistance. The reason I was thinking of sitting out was that it seems like at H, significantly more students ending up going the federal clerkship route (I could be remembering the stats wrong but I feel it was 24% for H compared to about 10% for C). Also, I wasn't sure how close being WL is to actually gaining acceptance.

[2014jdapplicant]

No word yet from Penn or Berk, 75k from Duke which I'm trying use for negotiation. WL at UVA

Wait for $ from Penn and Berk but right now I'd go to Duke instead of doing $270k debt at CN

Thanks! Do you think that the extra debt at CN is offset by higher chances of getting fed clerk or is that just not worth the money?

[rad lulz]

No word yet from Penn or Berk, 75k from Duke which I'm trying use for negotiation. WL at UVA

Wait for $ from Penn and Berk but right now I'd go to Duke instead of doing $270k debt at CN

Thanks! Do you think that the extra debt at CN is offset by higher chances of getting fed clerk or is that just not worth the money?

Duke gives you about the same chance to be be a federal clerk

[JDDreaming]

I don't know if waiting another cycle is something you are truly interested in, but I have your exact same stats (though, I did not retake my June LSAT so I had the score when originally applying) and I was accepted to CCN receiving a solid amount of money from all three. My feeling is that if you reapply you will definitely still get into the two you have already been accepted to (and Chicago) and may receive larger scholarships.

Granted, I'm planning on attending Columbia unless I get off the Harvard waitlist and therefore, the late LSAT could not have hurt you too badly since we'll probably end up in the same place

[mylifeis24]

I would reapply next cycle with that 176. You can definitely get more money from CCN with that, and maybe even try your luck at HYS again. Otherwise, if you're set on going this cycle, then Duke is your best choice, besides riding the waitlist and hoping for solid money.

[rayiner]

No word yet from Penn or Berk, 75k from Duke which I'm trying use for negotiation. WL at UVA

Wait for $ from Penn and Berk but right now I'd go to Duke instead of doing $270k debt at CN

Thanks! Do you think that the extra debt at CN is offset by higher chances of getting fed clerk or is that just not worth the money?

Penn has had a slightly better track record of putting people in clerkships over the last several years than either Columbia or NYU. But for clerkships, pretty much the entire lower T14 is in an 8-12% "not HYS" range. Also: clerkships last a year, and the vast majority of clerks go on to do jobs they could've gotten without the clerkship. It's not a good reason to pick a school.

[transferror]

OP, you clearly have well over 50k in savings based on the COA numbers. Don't blow it this year. Your numbers should get you full rides or close to it in the lower T14, and your savings should about cover your cost of living depending on the school. You will very likely be able to graduate debt free from a great school if you wait until next cycle. That is > CCN at 150k.

[jbagelboy]

Would you get need based aid from H? Sounds like you'd just have more debt there then CN.. Not sure why it would make sense to sit out

The cost difference is small enough that this one can go down to preference b/t the schools. Your goals are pretty standard for prestige gunning law students.. Either school will set you up well. I'd do CLS cause I think overall placement is slightly higher but both are solid

Would probably get some but not a ton of need based assistance. The reason I was thinking of sitting out was that it seems like at H, significantly more students ending up going the federal clerkship route (I could be remembering the stats wrong but I feel it was 24% for H compared to about 10% for C). Also, I wasn't sure how close being WL is to actually gaining acceptance.

Harvard is traditionally more like 15-17%. See http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/harvard/2013/. The clerk-heavier T14s are in this same range (UChi was 14% last year - although H's figure is more impressive when you consider their massive class size). If you really want to secure a federal clerkship, Yale and Stanford are much better alternatives.

Moreover, remember a clerkship is just a 1-year gig in chambers. CoA clerkships are prestigious no doubt, but it's not a career. Sounds like you want to be at a firm either way.

From my observational experience getting a clerkship at a top school is based in large part on how strivy the student is for it, which is why the clerkship %'s among the T14 schools are pretty fungible. Penn might send more clerks than Duke one year, or NYU more than Berkeley, but the sample sizes are so small that one shouldn't read too much into year-to-year variations and you can assume they are all parallel. Unlike big law, clerkships are not handed to you at some sort of on-campus recruiting. If you're a top student on law review, professors will approach you with clerkship opportunities (easiest way), but most people have to pave the track for themselves by actively networking with profs, going to a lot of office hours/lunches, getting published somewhere through them (as a student note/article writer, which isn't as tough as it sounds but it's still a bitch). The majority of students won't want a federal clerkship, and among those who do, it's difficult to decipher exactly how many are not getting one who go through the rigorous application process. Basically, what I'm trying to communicate is that given all the arbitrariness of the process and the temporariness (1 year) of the gig, it's a pretty shitty metric for basing which school to go to and whether or not you should go this year or next.

I can totally understand your reluctance to attend any law school without more $ tho.

tl;dr - what ray said

[BanjoCalhoun]

If you took the LSAT in February and only got waitlisted to Harvard now then they already took that into account and there doesn't seem to be sense in reapplying next year on that basis.

You're right about the difference in students doing federal clerkships out of Harvard versus Columbia and NYU but much of that seems to be due to self selection, since a lot of CLS and NYU students are unwilling to leave NYC for those jobs as is necessary for most.

[2014jdapplicant]

Thanks all for the responses!

If you took the LSAT in February and only got waitlisted to Harvard now then they already took that into account and there doesn't seem to be sense in reapplying next year on that basis.

You're right about the difference in students doing federal clerkships out of Harvard versus Columbia and NYU but much of that seems to be due to self selection, since a lot of CLS and NYU students are unwilling to leave NYC for those jobs as is necessary for most.

That makes a lot of sense - I wish there was a way to determine how much of a self-selection issue it is. On reapplying, I figured if I applied early before medians have been set they may view a high LSAT as slightly more desirable? But maybe that's just wishful...

No word yet from Penn or Berk, 75k from Duke which I'm trying use for negotiation. WL at UVA

Wait for $ from Penn and Berk but right now I'd go to Duke instead of doing $270k debt at CN

Thanks! Do you think that the extra debt at CN is offset by higher chances of getting fed clerk or is that just not worth the money?

Penn has had a slightly better track record of putting people in clerkships over the last several years than either Columbia or NYU. But for clerkships, pretty much the entire lower T14 is in an 8-12% "not HYS" range. Also: clerkships last a year, and the vast majority of clerks go on to do jobs they could've gotten without the clerkship. It's not a good reason to pick a school.

Good point - while it would be nice to maximize the chance of getting a clerkship, it shouldn't in itself be a huge factor. I guess my question was more along the lines of what would happen at CCN if I turn them down this year only to apply again next year. If they don't care, I'm quite happy to stay in my job another year, try to save more, and then go to a CCN if Harvard doesn't end up working out (or potentially a Duke or Penn if CCN scholarships don't work out well).

[Power_of_Facing]

I would reapply next cycle with that 176. You can definitely get more money from CCN with that, and maybe even try your luck at HYS again. Otherwise, if you're set on going this cycle, then Duke is your best choice, besides riding the waitlist and hoping for solid money.

This is sound advice. Take it.

[2014jdapplicant]

I would reapply next cycle with that 176. You can definitely get more money from CCN with that, and maybe even try your luck at HYS again. Otherwise, if you're set on going this cycle, then Duke is your best choice, besides riding the waitlist and hoping for solid money.

This is sound advice. Take it.

Thanks - this is what I'm thinking of doing currently. Anyone have experience of reapplying to CCN after being accepted in the previous cycle? I'm definitely not set on going this cycle, but don't want to antagonize any admissions people by withdrawing now only to apply again in a few months. Any thoughts or anecdotes about this?