Choosing Michigan over NYU/Columbia? Forum

[Irn Bru]

Apologies in advance because this will be both annoyingly specific and general.

I'm leaning strongly towards Michigan over NYU and Columbia.

Financials first: I got some $ from Michigan, but my parents are willing to help and have told me money should play no role in my decision. I'd like to be more financially independent, which I obviously would at Michigan, but it isn't a major factor. I realize and respect how this makes my decision a lot less consequential than many here, but I'm still looking for advice.

My reasoning for preferring Michigan mainly centers around my enjoyment of the next 3 years, and I'm trying to figure out whether whatever sacrifices I'd be making for my future would offset this. I love Ann Arbor, the Midwest, Michigan football, etc. and have 1L friends there who are having a great time.

I like New York a lot, but am someone who gets extremely stressed by schoolwork and feel like the city would only ratchet that up. I also think I scored flukily high on the LSAT (5 points higher than any of my 10 practice tests), and am concerned about how I'd stack up alongside my classmates. My mock classes at Michigan and NYU's ASWs anecdotally back this up: I did the reading at both, felt great at Michigan and very very slow at NYU. Both schools talk about collegiality and lack of competition, but it felt more genuine at Michigan.

I don't have very specific career goals, but could see myself working at a firm for a couple years (I have no strong geographical preference), hopefully with a clerkship at some point, then branching out into either a Federal Government or DA's office. Do you think my career options would be substantially different if I chose Michigan? The faculty at the New York schools are also more impressive, which definitely appeals to me, but I also love the accessibility of the faculty at Michigan.

I haven't visited Columbia yet, but everything I've heard has me leaning towards NYU over it.

[notactuallyposting]

If cost is no issue, you should maximize your likelihood of reaching your goals. Law school wont be any easier at Michigan than it will be at NYU or Columbia. The midwest will always be there for you. Where are your ties?

I get where you are coming from. I love the Michigan vibe as well.

I vote Columbia. Make a poll, and you will see.

[PrideandGlory1776]

Make polls, give COA, and provide more info. If money is not a factor though go with Columbia for sure.

[Irn Bru]

Added a poll.

I'm from New England, but have most of my family in the Midwest. In terms of law-related ties, most are in DC or NYC, which could be a factor.

[EnormousCheese]

If money is legitimately not an issue, then head down to NY and and visit NYU and Columbia in order to determine which is a better fit. I was in a similar spot and chose Columbia, and knew many others who went with NYU. It's an eternally debated topic. Nevertheless, it's important to recognize that both schools have their respective strengths. Columbia is slightly better for Big Law, and NYU is definitely better for Public Interest, which seems to be your career orientation. In that case, I would recommend NYU. Their PI resources are much better than Columbia's. As a 1L, I can tell you that Columbia will not offer you as much for PI as NYU will. That isn't to say that Columbia won't get you where you want, but NYU will give you a level of institutional support for PI that Columbia can't match. Prestige is equal between the two schools, and should not be a factor in your decision.

[michellemarie]

You would not have been admitted to Columbia if the admissions committee did not think you could handle the environment there. For all the competitive assholes, there are even more non-competitive students who enjoy collaborating. Ignore the gunners. Just compete with yourself and try your best.
COLUMBIA, w/o question, should be your choice

[Gogeta39]

NYU offers pretty significant resources tailored towards people who are set on DA and Fed Gov work. I'd say NYU by a comfortable margin. Columbia has a slight edge (probably mostly due to self-selection) if all you want is big law, but NYU will probably offer more opportunities for the kind of work you're interested in doing.

[Nomo]

If money really doesn't matter and its not important for you to make biglaw money then you should go to Michigan. Its important to be happy and to enjoy your life. 3 years is probably 5% of your remaining life - don't waste it; especially to improve your chances of winning a prize (biglaw) that you don't care about.

[jbagelboy]

If your parents are paying for it: Columbia. First, why would you visit NYU and not CLS if you were in Manhattan? Second, forget everything you've heard. Talk to actual students, not stereotypes and ignorant fear mongers. Third, regardless of what you choose between NYU and Columbia, it would be patently stupid given the non-specificity and geographic flexibility of your goals to take Michigan. Seriously. If TLS would come together on anything, it's that at equal cost, CCN over GULC/Michigan for large firm work, and NYU > Michigan et. al for public interest.

There's very little you can say here for Michigan that would convince me it's an even remotely reasonable choice. Even the environmental factors weigh heavily against it: you like NYC, Ann Arbor is fucking cold too, and you're very wealthy so you can actually enjoy yourself -> NY >>>> AA.

Don't let the LSAT thing stress you out. Many people are confused in most classes much of the time. At Michigan, you'll have to write the exams better than more than half of your classmates to have a safe shot at a good outcome from law school. At Columbia, as long as you aren't in the bottom quarter of shitty exams you'll probably be okay, and NYU bottom third.

[michellemarie]

If your parents are paying for it: Columbia. First, why would you visit NYU and not CLS if you were in Manhattan? Second, forget everything you've heard. Talk to actual students, not stereotypes and ignorant fear mongers. Third, regardless of what you choose between NYU and Columbia, it would be patently stupid given the non-specificity and geographic flexibility of your goals to take Michigan. Seriously. If TLS would come together on anything, it's that at equal cost, CCN over GULC/Michigan for large firm work, and NYU > Michigan et. al for public interest.

There's very little you can say here for Michigan that would convince me it's an even remotely reasonable choice. Even the environmental factors weigh heavily against it: you like NYC, Ann Arbor is fucking cold too, and you're very wealthy so you can actually enjoy yourself -> NY >>>> AA.

Don't let the LSAT thing stress you out. Many people are confused in most classes much of the time. At Michigan, you'll have to write the exams better than more than half of your classmates to have a safe shot at a good outcome from law school. At Columbia, as long as you aren't in the bottom quarter of shitty exams you'll probably be okay, and NYU bottom third.

I completely agree!

[Irn Bru]

I really appreciate the responses.

I know I'm in the minority, but I'm very confident I enjoy a college town and everything that comes with it (I'm only 1 year out of undergrad, so the prospect of hanging out at Ricks, etc isn't as revolting to me as it may be to some) over New York regardless of how much money I had to spend. So I'm trying to gauge how much I'd be trading off if I chose Michigan.

Hypothetically, let's say I'm scoring average at Michigan and in the bottom 25% at NYU/Columbia. I'm guessing my prospects are still worse at Michigan, but how much worse when it comes to getting a solid firm job (even if it's not prestige/top 50) or an internship at a DA's office my 1L summer?

[BanjoCalhoun]

I'm in a similar position as you with parents funding/helping with law school, and the final decision mostly came down to Michigan, which would be about half the cost and I'm from the midwest, versus Columbia/NYU.

I was concerned about CLS's reputation for having a bunch of gunner students who don't care to make friends. The ASW showed me this is a complete myth. The employment numbers are spectacular and if anything, the fact that people don't feel like they're competing with each other for jobs, since almost everyone gets hired, seems to take some of the edge off. Columbia also has an enclosed campus and plenty of restaurants and shops etc, so you're not sacrificing the feel of a campus as you'd have to with NYU.

All things being equal in terms of cost for you, CLS will probably open the most doors. My impression has been that its biglaw numbers versus PI have more to do with self selection than with people not having government or PI options in front of them. Also as for moving back to the midwest, you'd be a novelty there for hiring committees. Most people stay in NYC from those schools because they want to and not because they can't get hired elsewhere.

As for worrying about where you place in the class, I don't think things like GPA/LSAT are the determinants some people make them out to be. Everyone starts at square one their first year.

I think some of your concerns are legitimate and I had the same ones for a long while, but I think it'd be worth your while to visit Columbia.

[Irn Bru]

I'm in a similar position as you with parents funding/helping with law school, and the final decision mostly came down to Michigan, which would be about half the cost and I'm from the midwest, versus Columbia/NYU.

I was concerned about CLS's reputation for having a bunch of gunner students who don't care to make friends. The ASW showed me this is a complete myth. The employment numbers are spectacular and if anything, the fact that people don't feel like they're competing with each other for jobs, since almost everyone gets hired, seems to take some of the edge off. Columbia also has an enclosed campus and plenty of restaurants and shops etc, so you're not sacrificing the feel of a campus as you'd have to with NYU.

All things being equal in terms of cost for you, CLS will probably open the most doors. My impression has been that its biglaw numbers versus PI have more to do with self selection than with people not having government or PI options in front of them. Also as for moving back to the midwest, you'd be a novelty there for hiring committees. Most people stay in NYC from those schools because they want to and not because they can't get hired elsewhere.

As for worrying about where you place in the class, I don't think things like GPA/LSAT are the determinants some people make them out to be. Everyone starts at square one their first year.

I think some of your concerns are legitimate and I had the same ones for a long while, but I think it'd be worth your while to visit Columbia.

Yeah, I'm visiting Columbia on their last minute Monday ASD. But their heavy big-law focus and and reviews I heard from several other admitted students at NYU's ASW turned me off. I'll visit with an open mind though especially since I've never seen its campus.

[banjo]

Yeah, I'm visiting Columbia on their last minute Monday ASD. But their heavy big-law focus and and reviews I heard from several other admitted students at NYU's ASW turned me off. I'll visit with an open mind though especially since I've never seen its campus.

What did you hear? Might be worth it to address these rumors that so many threads are talking about.

[Irn Bru]

Yeah, I'm visiting Columbia on their last minute Monday ASD. But their heavy big-law focus and and reviews I heard from several other admitted students at NYU's ASW turned me off. I'll visit with an open mind though especially since I've never seen its campus.

What did you hear? Might be worth it to address these rumors that so many threads are talking about.

That they found NYU kids a lot more chill and down to earth, it seemed they had more of a life outside law school, etc. Maybe they were just spouting NYU propaganda, but the ASWs were one right after the other so I trusted their judgement.

[jbagelboy]

Yeah, I'm visiting Columbia on their last minute Monday ASD. But their heavy big-law focus and and reviews I heard from several other admitted students at NYU's ASW turned me off. I'll visit with an open mind though especially since I've never seen its campus.

What did you hear? Might be worth it to address these rumors that so many threads are talking about.

That they found NYU kids a lot more chill and down to earth, it seemed they had more of a life outside law school, etc. Maybe they were just spouting NYU propaganda, but the ASWs were one right after the other so I trusted their judgement.

Yeah.. my problem with this is that those of us who do have extensive lives outside law school were far less likely to choose to/have time to attend those admitted student events. So it's a selectively campus-involved sample. Lots of people have lives off campus, we're adults; it's a personal choice at the end of the day.

[banjo]

NYU is a bit closer to New York's best food and nightlife, so there are probably more opportunities for NYU students to grab dinner or drinks on the fly. That said, there's plenty to do at CLS too. There's a rich campus life, and the neighborhood has plenty of parks where you can just hang out or run on a nice day.

I don't know if NYU students are more chilled out. In general I don't pay attention to the promotional materials that law schools (and firms) put out. When I applied, NYU sent a "pizza box" full of marketing booklets. Nice touch, but it's just an attempt to sell you on Greenwich Village. I wouldn't weigh that too heavily in choosing a professional school.

[Irn Bru]

Yeah, I'm visiting Columbia on their last minute Monday ASD. But their heavy big-law focus and and reviews I heard from several other admitted students at NYU's ASW turned me off. I'll visit with an open mind though especially since I've never seen its campus.

What did you hear? Might be worth it to address these rumors that so many threads are talking about.

That they found NYU kids a lot more chill and down to earth, it seemed they had more of a life outside law school, etc. Maybe they were just spouting NYU propaganda, but the ASWs were one right after the other so I trusted their judgement.

Yeah.. my problem with this is that those of us who do have extensive lives outside law school were far less likely to choose to/have time to attend those admitted student events. So it's a selectively campus-involved sample. Lots of people have lives off campus, we're adults; it's a personal choice at the end of the day.

Fair point. I also don't think students I meet out at bars on a Thursday night are necessarily that representative of the entire student body either.

[buffalo_]

I really appreciate the responses.

I know I'm in the minority, but I'm very confident I enjoy a college town and everything that comes with it (I'm only 1 year out of undergrad, so the prospect of hanging out at Ricks, etc isn't as revolting to me as it may be to some) over New York regardless of how much money I had to spend. So I'm trying to gauge how much I'd be trading off if I chose Michigan.

Hypothetically, let's say I'm scoring average at Michigan and in the bottom 25% at NYU/Columbia. I'm guessing my prospects are still worse at Michigan, but how much worse when it comes to getting a solid firm job (even if it's not prestige/top 50) or an internship at a DA's office my 1L summer?

I had similar concerns about CLS until I visited it. Mind you, I am still a 0L without having actually attended CLS but I can say that the rumors I heard were in no way confirmed or even remotely hinted at. There will be lots of chill students at both schools and there will be gunners at both schools. I found all of the students at CLS and NYU I met were very nice, very intelligent, and all around happy with where they were going to school. And Columbia certainly has more of a "college town" feel than you might expect. They actually have a campus (NYU has a public park that is kind of their adopted quad) and it's surrounded by two nice parks on either sides of the campus. Also Morningside Heights is just much quieter than downtown. But that's all personal preference.

I think you have to sort of plan on being median at law school. It's a 50/50 chance you'll end up above or below median anywhere. Everyone chooses their school for different reasons. Lot's of students that marginally get into NYU or CLS go at sticker over a place like Michigan because they really want big law/PI/NYC/have family money to cover costs. Similarly there will be lots of brilliant students at Michigan who got into NYU and CLS but chose Michigan because they like the region/it was more affordable/any number of reasons. I don't think the student body at NYU or CLS on the whole is any smarter than that of Michigan or that you're going to be at an advantage/disadvantage going to any of them. They are all great schools. They are all tough to get into. There is significant overlap in admitted students to all three.

So if we assume you end up right around median, then I think the easy answer (based on your costs and goals) is Columbia. It by far places the best at big firms. Clerkship numbers are going to be pretty close at all 3 (I think NYU was higher on the last poll I saw, but Columbia has more SCOTUS clerks) and getting one is going to be so tough that the difference among these three is negligible. ETA: According to LST CLS is well below both UM and NYU for clerkships. I can speculate as to why this is, but if your goals are work then clerk, I think the advice is still the same.


TL;DR - Assume you are median. Median at Columbia = firm job, median at NYU = probably a firm job, median at Michigan = 50/50 shot at a firm job.

[bowser]

I'd pick Columbia b/c you seem to have vague goals and that usually means you're going to go for Biglaw, but if you are not going into significant debt I don't think any of these are terrible choices.

I would reiterate that I don't think people at Columbia are any smarter than people at Michigan, and you will probably get similar grades regardless of where you go (or at least your grades would differ based more on randomness than your classmates).