The fundamental problem with practicing lawyers Forum

[burtsbees]

First off, I'm appreciative of all the advice the current students and practicing lawyers have given on TLS. That being said, I'm sick of reading posts on this forum from these folks who keep shitting on the legal profession and advising 0Ls who get into top schools NOT to attend law school (note: not TTT- I fully support shitting on anyone considering going outside of T-5 not for free/close to free).

Here's the deal: if you want to make anything of yourself, part of your professional life is going to suck. I can't think of a single profession on the face of the planet that doesn't involve personal sacrifices if you want to make enough $$ to be in the top 5-10% income earners.

What about doctors you say? The medical profession is the most demanding in the world. And yes, doctors are unhappy.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... ssion.html

Go into tech? I can tell you from first hand experience, software engineering ain't no walk in the park. You want to be on call at all hours of the day? Work 9am-2am for 7 days a week for multiple weeks in a row to make a release on time? Wake up for 7am conference calls with India that drag on for hours because no one can understand each other? All this to top out in the mid $100ks at the height of your career? Yeah, go be a software engineer. Not to mention that most law school applicants don't have the technical savvy to do such a thing anyways. Sure, it'd be nice to get in at a start-up and become one of those instant millionaires post-IPO. But that requires work and hustle 24/7. Plus, it's a bigger pipe dream than becoming a partner at a law firm.

What about banking? Banking hours suck too. You get fat from ordering Chinese takeout every night from Seamless. You get yelled at constantly by your managing director, and you're the PE guy's bitch. They own your ass. The only guy you get to make your bitch besides the average looking, insecure, gold-digging broad you met on OKCupid (since you don't have the time to get laid otherwise) is the poor M&A lawyer working on your deal.

Working at a hedge fund or PE firm would be awesome, you say. I agree. You get paid like a king and work reasonable hours (aka less than banking hours). But do you even know how to get into a hedge fund or PE firm? Yeah, that's right- you have to be a top performer at a top I-bank (JP, MS, GS- not some TTT like Citi, DB, or crappy boutique) or top consulting shop (McKinsey, Bain, BCG). If 0Ls had that option, I doubt they'd be applying to law school.

What about any other crappy corporate job? If you're happy with a 9-5 that pays $60k, an average looking wife, and a 4 bedroom house in the suburbs of Cleveland, you wouldn't be applying to law school.

Do all of these options seem sub-optimal to you? If yes, then all I can say is blame your parents for not giving birth to you in France or Greece so you can work 3 hours a day while living off the State. If your employer requires more, you can always go on strike.

Yes, debt sucks. Going to a non-t5 for anything less than a full-ride is not a great idea IMO. But if you can get into a t5 school, you have every opportunity in the legal profession open to you. It's up to you to make it. Sure there will be ups and downs, but what career doesn't have ups and downs? If you don't succeed, look in the mirror- it's on you. You likely wouldn't be successful an any of these other professions either.

[jk148706]

*popcorn plz*

[jk148706]

Also blatant NYU trolling

[kaiser]

Big difference between telling prospective students considering top schools to "not go to law school" (which I don't recall seeing people advise too often), and saying "going into full sticker debt is crazy, and you should take the $$" (which I see very often, and seems to be the general consensus among grads). Show me the thread where the consensus among practicing lawyers is that prospective students shouldn't attend law school at all.

[bombaysippin]

Also blatant NYU trolling

Was just about to say this lol

[TheSpanishMain]

you sound alpha as fuck, bro

[jimbeam21]

Bump...especially for the part on France. That was hilarious.

The grass is not always greener on the other side, which a lot of unhappy lawyers seem to forget.

[cinephile]

Sounds like someone is a little defensive. If you're already getting defensive about your choices, then you know it's not right for you. Good luck in your future endeavors.

[burtsbees]

You know, I originally had top-3 instead of top-5. But I figured that'd alienate those at CCN, which at full sticker or close to full sticker, is not much better than a TTT.

[kaiser]

You know, I originally had top-3 instead of top-5. But I figured that'd alienate those at CCN, which at full sticker or close to full sticker, is not much better than a TTT.

I don't get what the issue is. Grads pretty much agree that going to a great school on huge scholarship is better than going to an elite school at sticker. For example, a large majority of grads would say that a lower T14 with close to full scholarship is far better than CCN at sticker. And nearly all would say that CCN on a named scholarship beats out HYS at sticker. There is nothing controversial about this.

The reason so many grads seem to be in agreement is because we know have firsthand knowledge on employment outcomes, and how the differences we agonized over as 0L's ended up being not as huge as we made them out to be (or at least not big enough to justify so much extra debt). Not to mention that we now tangibly understand the way our debt will shape our financial futures, and have the benefit of hindsight. That isn't to say that we would have necessarily chosen the no-debt route, but i'm sure many of us would have gone for a lower-debt route, since the marginal benefit wasn't worth the extra cost for many people.

[ManoftheHour]

What about any other crappy corporate job? If you're happy with a 9-5 that pays $60k, an average looking wife

You can get hot women with a lot less than that. If you can't, I feel sorry for you. Personality and charm goes a long way, bro.

[Gunnar Stahl]

tl;dr

[El Pollito]

What about any other crappy corporate job? If you're happy with a 9-5 that pays $60k, an average looking wife

You can get hot women with a lot less than that. If you can't, I feel sorry for you. Personality and charm goes a long way, bro.

lol

[jbagelboy]

Wow. What a train-wreck.

This "T5 or non-T5 for free" schtick is actually far more restrictive and punitive than the positions advocated by any of the practicing attorneys on this board.

[worldtraveler]

With the debt you have from law school, you won't be affording a house anytime soon, let alone a 4 bedroom one. With your 3k a month loan payment that salary is going to feel like 60k.

You won't have time to meet a wife, no matter how good looking she is. If you do find a wife willing to put up with never seeing you, chances are she's spending all your money.

[kaiser]

Wow. What a train-wreck.

This "T5 or non-T5 for free" schtick is actually far more restrictive and punitive than the positions advocated by any of the practicing attorneys on this board.

Yeah, I'm really not sure where he is getting that straw man from

[TelegramSam]

The ontopics are such a cesspool. I don't even know why people like Rayiner and Rad lulz et al still try

[sah]

This is a bit extreme but what I will say is that while a lot of biglaw associates (correctly) mock 0Ls for being naive about what the profession/debt entail, there are plenty of biglaw associates (many of them K-JDs) who are ironically a bit naive about what options exist in 2014 for your typical liberal arts college grad (i.e., the type of person most likely to apply to law school). Hint: they often aren't great. LOL at 60k. More like 35k.

[jimbeam21]

This is a bit extreme but what I will say is that while a lot of biglaw associates (correctly) mock 0Ls for being naive about what the profession/debt entail, there are plenty of biglaw associates (many of them K-JDs) who are ironically a bit naive about what options exist in 2014 for your typical liberal arts college grad (i.e., the type of person most likely to apply to law school). Hint: they often aren't great. LOL at 60k. More like 35k.

There are some logical flaws in his argument, but I do think he's spot on in many respects. Work life in general sucks. A lot of people (many practicing lawyers on this board) fail to recognize that. It's all about going in with the right attitude and perspective- hence why I think previous work experience is so important.

[jk148706]

.

[kaiser]

This is a bit extreme but what I will say is that while a lot of biglaw associates (correctly) mock 0Ls for being naive about what the profession/debt entail, there are plenty of biglaw associates (many of them K-JDs) who are ironically a bit naive about what options exist in 2014 for your typical liberal arts college grad (i.e., the type of person most likely to apply to law school). Hint: they often aren't great. LOL at 60k. More like 35k.

There are some logical flaws in his argument, but I do think he's spot on in many respects. Work life in general sucks. A lot of people (many practicing lawyers on this board) fail to recognize that. It's all about going in with the right attitude and perspective- hence why I think previous work experience is so important.

Yeah. I had 3+ years of work experience that required 50-60 hours per week and basically on call 24/7. If news broke, I had to go cover it. And I made <$30k. And I was considered good outcome. Working life just blows sometimes.

Again, I think most of OP's argument is all just a straw man. Where are the threads of actual grads telling people not to go to law school, saying that the life of a lawyer sucks too much? If you actually asked the grads on here, I think the vast majority would say they are relatively happy in their jobs thus far.

[baloneydanza]

I guess the moral of the story is that capitalism has failed us

[jk148706]

.

[84651846190]

I stopped reading at "T-5."

[Otunga]

Where are these 9-5 jobs that pay 60k+ and allow you to buy a 4 bedroom house? Particularly, where are they for all the humanities majors applying to law school?