NYU/Columbia ($190k debt) vs. U of MN ($0 debt) for PI Forum

[matilda0401]

The schools you are considering
NYU, Columbia, and U of MN

Total debt at repayment (used this calculator)
NYU: $184,000
Columbia: $190,000* (based on the assumption that Columbia scholarship will be roughly equal to NYU scholarship – so if your advice would be change if this number were closer to $165,000, or $215,000, let me know).
U of MN: $0

How you will be financing your COA
NYU/Columbia: Gigantic loans -> LRAP/IBR/PSLF combination. According to the research I've done/people I've consulted, this is actually a pretty safe bet at both of these schools, given their high income caps, large endowments, and rock solid probabilities of securing qualifying jobs. Realistically, I could end up paying $0 of those loans – but the slight(?) potential for something to go wrong is pretty terrifying.
U of MN: n/a

Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
I have many friends here and a good start to a law/PI network in Minnesota, as well as family and some law/PI connections in Colorado and the Bay Area. I love all those places, but I also don't feel a strong need to be anywhere specific. However, having a family is important to me. Overall geographic portability of my degree and flexibility with regard to debt management could be crucial in the future when making life decisions jointly with other people.

Your general career goals
My goals fall exclusively under the PI umbrella. The specific sub-fields that interest me are varied (and can obviously shift), so I don't think any of them should sway the decision hugely. Ultimately: "wide-reach" (e.g. policy, impact litigation) PI law >> "local-reach" (e.g. legal services) PI law >>> non-law PI >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-PI law

Your LSAT/GPA numbers
175/3.5x

How many times you have taken the LSAT
1


I am so excited about these options, but weighing them against each other is costing me my sanity... School with amazing opportunities and gigantic debt/golden LRAP, or school with decent opportunities and no debt whatsoever not even a little bit?! All suggestions, thoughts, and tough-love reality checks MEGA APPRECIATED!

[twenty]

PI law >>> non-law PI >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-PI law

Then NYU. Worst case scenario, you end up entirely on PAYE/PSLF in a totally non-law related PI gig, which is not entirely difficult to get. That risk ends up being between 30k and 70k over the course of 10 years depending on your salary. To me, the advantage NYU has in getting kids PI gigs is worth it for you.

EDIT> Strong tie with Columbia, though. The non-IBR track will still qualify you for PSLF, but will take out a much larger chunk of your principal debt, and would still cost the same (i.e, $0) if you're under 50k. Might want to do that at the start of your PI career.

[matilda0401]

Worst case scenario, you end up entirely on PAYE/PSLF in a totally non-law related PI gig, which is not entirely difficult to get. That risk ends up being between 30k and 70k over the course of 10 years depending on your salary.

So do you think the possibility of a PSLF cap (or some other disastrous change to the program) being applied retroactively is so negligible that I don't need to seriously consider it? Assuming PSLF remains as it is, I agree that the worst case scenario would be totally manageable/worth it – I'm just worried about the much worse worst case scenario if it changes.

The non-IBR track will still qualify you for PSLF, but will take out a much larger chunk of your principal debt, and would still cost the same (i.e, $0) if you're under 50k. Might want to do that at the start of your PI career.

This seems like a really good way to mitigate the risks of PSLF changes. I thought I remembered reading something about Columbia "strongly encouraging" graduates to do the IBR track though - if the non-IBR option is no longer available when I graduate, or if they make it extremely difficult to use it, that might be a problem.

Thanks so much for your thoughts!

[kaiser]

Since you sound deadset on PI, then I would definitely vote NYU. They have such a strong pipeline to PI work, a separate career office dedicated to PI students, a really robust PI recruiting program, etc.

[twenty]

The non-IBR track will still qualify you for PSLF, but will take out a much larger chunk of your principal debt, and would still cost the same (i.e, $0) if you're under 50k. Might want to do that at the start of your PI career.

This seems like a really good way to mitigate the risks of PSLF changes. I thought I remembered reading something about Columbia "strongly encouraging" graduates to do the IBR track though - if the non-IBR option is no longer available when I graduate, or if they make it extremely difficult to use it, that might be a problem.

Thanks so much for your thoughts!

It does seem really unlikely that they'd remove the non-IBR option in this day and age when they haven't already. The Obama Proposal shenanigans would give people unique reasons to choose the non-IBR plan. And worst case scenario, you're on Columbia's IBR program instead of NYU's -- big deal. ;P

Plus, I would imagine that any changes to their LRAPs (i.e, completely getting rid of one) would only apply to later incoming classes.

[jbagelboy]

I would take NYU, unless you are entirely committed to working and living in the twin cities and you have ties there, in which case UMN debt free makes more sense to me (especially if we are talking local PI, which will require a lot of legwork, on the ground networking).

[Tanicius]

I was looking at the same decision as you, only it was UMN for free versus Berkeley at full sticker. I picked the PI-strong T-14 school because my career goal of public defense required a geographic flexibility. If I had picked MN I would have been effectively limited to the Twin Cities in my job search. Ironically I ended up back in the Twin Cities for my job after graduation, but I was competitive for jobs all over the country, and that's what mattered.

You want to do impact litigation and policy work, which is much more "competitive" in the traditional law school sense (name and rank of school + grades) than public defense. You will almost certainly not get that kind of job coming from UMN unless you are very lucky. NYU has the best connections for that kind of work. If you had Harvard or Yale to choose from, then things might be different, but as things stand NYU is your best choice.

I would also not worry about PSLF getting revoked. One, it almost certainly would not be retroactively revoked. But second, NYU Law has a strong enough financial base that they would probably take care of you even if the proverbial rug was indeed pulled out from under you.

[matilda0401]

Great thoughts, everyone – thank you so much. One quick question regarding this:

I would take NYU, unless you are entirely committed to working and living in the twin cities and you have ties there, in which case UMN debt free makes more sense to me (especially if we are talking local PI, which will require a lot of legwork, on the ground networking).

I am curious how much geographic portability of a particular law school continues to matter once I have gotten my first job post-grad. I wouldn't mind being in Minneapolis for a bit but don't want to be tied there for my whole career necessarily. Would subsequent jobs care much more about my job experience than where I went to school, or would the school name still be a huge factor in opening doors? There is so much information on where grads are 9 months out, but so little on where they go from there, and it is hard to glean how much self-selection plays a part.

[rickgrimes69]

JFC the responses in this thread make me cry

Taking on $200k in debt to do PI and nothing but PI is a stupid move, OP should be prepared for biglaw

OP why don't you have $$$ at Michigan?

[Nomo]

I don't think PSLF will be capped for you, but I'm hardly confident about that. Anyways, do you really want to spend the next 14+ years of your life worrying about that as your debt continues to rise to unimaginable heights. Because I can promise you, you will be worrying about it - more days than not. Shit - you might be 190k at graduation, but you could be be what 210 by the time you're allowed to make that first IBR payment. And 220 by the time you're a year past graduation. How much are you going to owe in year 6???

And its going to take 14 years to get through the program, maybe more. You can't make an IBR/PAYE payment until you're 9 months past graduation, then you make 120 payments (if you are unemployed for a time that might slow you down further) then you must remain in PSLF eligible employment while they process forgiveness (nobody knows yet, but I'd be shocked if that processing is less than 3 months).

Do not borrow that kind of cash with PSLF as your plan.

Edit: 3 of the 14 years I'm referring to are the 3 years you're in school.

[matilda0401]

Thank you again, everyone, for the thoughtful replies. I have a lot of questions and would appreciate anyone's feedback on them!

Taking on $200k in debt to do PI and nothing but PI is a stupid move, OP should be prepared for biglaw

Which part of depending on the LRAP/PSLF combination do you think is a stupid move? LRAP, PSLF, or both? And are there particular reasons that you think it is risky, or just a general principle that it is unwise to take on debt that you are depending on other sources (besides your own income) to repay? LRAP/PSLF seem pretty secure in many ways, but I will not choose NYU or Columbia if I decide there is more than a slight chance of it falling through -- I have done a lot of research, but am still unsure, so I appreciate any insights/research findings that others have.

OP why don't you have $$$ at Michigan?

I have a $22.5k/year scholarship at Michigan vs. a $15k/year scholarship at NYU. Even with the higher cost of living, I think NYU's much stronger LRAP and much stronger PI resources make it a better choice -- my debt at Michigan would still be impossible on a PI salary, so I would still be depending on the LRAP(with a weaker LRAP)/PSLF combo there too.

I don't think PSLF will be capped for you, but I'm hardly confident about that.

The potential for a cap is definitely a concern, but articles I have read on the subject indicate that people already participating in the program would almost certainly be grandfathered in (of course that "almost" is scary -- I am trying to figure out exactly how big that "almost" is).

And its going to take 14 years to get through the program, maybe more. You can't make an IBR/PAYE payment until you're 9 months past graduation, then you make 120 payments (if you are unemployed for a time that might slow you down further) then you must remain in PSLF eligible employment while they process forgiveness (nobody knows yet, but I'd be shocked if that processing is less than 3 months).

Do you think Columbia's non-IBR LRAP is a viable option? Also, run-on question: Is the concern about the 10+ years of post-grad participation in the program mostly about the emotional impact of having debt hanging over me, mostly about there being an actual realistic possibility that PSLF could change in a way that screws me over after all that time, or mostly about lack of flexibility to pursue other kinds of work? The first two are major concerns of mine and I am trying to find out as much about them as I can. The third one is not a concern -- all of my interests (law and otherwise) lie in the realm of PSLF, so needing to work in those fields for at least 10 years is the plan anyway.

[matilda0401]

(I should also mention that if my debt estimates seem a little off based on the scholarship amounts I just provided, it is because my parents are supporting my cost of living up to $15,000 each year.)

[Nomo]

Do you think Columbia's non-IBR LRAP is a viable option? Also, run-on question: Is the concern about the 10+ years of post-grad participation in the program mostly about the emotional impact of having debt hanging over me, mostly about there being an actual realistic possibility that PSLF could change in a way that screws me over after all that time, or mostly about lack of flexibility to pursue other kinds of work? The first two are major concerns of mine and I am trying to find out as much about them as I can. The third one is not a concern -- all of my interests (law and otherwise) lie in the realm of PSLF, so needing to work in those fields for at least 10 years is the plan anyway.

I think Columbia's non-IBR LRAP is viable. But, make sure they aren't thinking about changing it and attaching it to IBR.

I think the emotional concerns and the possibility of PSLF changing are the major concerns. But, the ability to take on other kinds of work matters. What happens when budget cuts come and you get laid off? You might find that after 6 months the only jobs you can get are private sector. You might even find a private sector jobs that appeals to you in some ways (there really are private firms that try to do litigation in the public-interest). You'd rather have that private sector job than no job.

[rickgrimes69]

Taking on $200k in debt to do PI and nothing but PI is a stupid move, OP should be prepared for biglaw

Which part of depending on the LRAP/PSLF combination do you think is a stupid move? LRAP, PSLF, or both? And are there particular reasons that you think it is risky, or just a general principle that it is unwise to take on debt that you are depending on other sources (besides your own income) to repay? LRAP/PSLF seem pretty secure in many ways, but I will not choose NYU or Columbia if I decide there is more than a slight chance of it falling through -- I have done a lot of research, but am still unsure, so I appreciate any insights/research findings that others have.

Banking your entire financial future on the continued existence of an incredibly expensive loan forgiveness program that Communist Barry, of all people, just recommended be capped seems like a pretty risky move to me

There's also the very real possibility that you won't get PI at all, and by the time that happens you've missed the Biglaw boat. What's your plan B?

[twenty]

What's your plan B?

I don't get it. At the point where OP says:

PI law >>> non-law PI >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-PI law

OP's probably not even going to want to participate in OCI. "Plan B" is really not that hard to get, comparatively speaking.

[Nelson]

What is your background and work experience? For most people in this job market, going to law school dead set on civil legal aid and nothing else is not very smart. Gunning for PD is a little more plausible, but it doesn't sound like you want to do criminal work.

[cron1834]

Relying on the Fed to bail you out of $200k with PSLF is dubious, especially if Republicans take things over. How are there no lower T14 options here? Don't people in at CLS usually get money from UVA or NU or something? I wouldn't jump on any of these options if I didn't plan on actually making enough money to pay my debts back.

[rickgrimes69]

What's your plan B?

I don't get it. At the point where OP says:

PI law >>> non-law PI >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-PI law

OP's probably not even going to want to participate in OCI. "Plan B" is really not that hard to get, comparatively speaking.

please refer to the first part of my poast

[matilda0401]

What is your background and work experience? For most people in this job market, going to law school dead set on civil legal aid and nothing else is not very smart. Gunning for PD is a little more plausible, but it doesn't sound like you want to do criminal work.

My academic background is in environmental studies and statistics. My relevant work experience consists of a summer with an environmental nonprofit, a summer with a legal aid office, and a year with a human rights law/policy nonprofit. Essentially, nothing so substantive that it would greatly enhance my value to employers post-grad, but enough that I have the beginnings of a PI network and some idea of what it is actually like to work in PI.

[matilda0401]

How are there no lower T14 options here? Don't people in at CLS usually get money from UVA or NU or something?

I got waitlists from Virginia, Duke, and Georgetown, and a rejection from Berkeley. Northwestern offered me $0 in scholarships, so that’s out. The options that I have basically ruled out after careful thought are Michigan ($22.5k/year schol), Cornell (schol TBD), and Vanderbilt ($35k/year schol+ $5k summer stipend). My thoughts:

Michigan ($22.5k/year scholarship): As I said above, I can’t see that this would be the right choice for me when I have the option of NYU with $15k/year, or CLS with something similar. The debt would still not be serviceable on a PI job without depending on LRAP/PSLF, and Michigan’s LRAP is decent but not as amazing as NYU/CLS (same thing with its PI resources in general).

Cornell (scholarship pending): Cornell’s main downfall for me is its location in Ithaca. Beautiful, but in terms of networking, interning, externing, etc. during the school year, the opportunities would be minimal. Those opportunities can be really important for PI, particularly since Cornell doesn’t send too many graduates into PI. So unless Cornell offers me a huge scholarship in the next week, I can’t see that it would be my best option.

Vanderbilt ($35k/year scholarship + $5k summer stipend): Vanderbilt seems like a somewhat regional school in a region that I am not familiar with/connected to at all. While I don’t necessarily know if I want to stay in Minneapolis forever, I like it well enough to stay for awhile at least, and I have many friends and the beginnings of a professional network here. Somewhat less regional vs. in a better region (for me) seems like a tossup –- therefore, it doesn't seem to me that $45,000+ debt at Vanderbilt would beat $0 debt at U of MN in my case. This is the option I was least sure about eliminating though.

[matilda0401]

I have a guarantee from Columbia that their non-IBR LRAP will always be there for graduates who started school when it was in place.

Also, I noticed a provision in NYU's LRAP that I hadn't before -- they have a non-IBR LRAP as well, which is normally only available for use by people who are LRAP-eligible but not PSLF-eligible for some reason (international job or private loans are two of the most common reasons). But if someone is on NYU's IBR LRAP and leaves for whatever reason, NYU will cut that person a check to bring that person's debt load to what it would have been at that point on the non-IBR LRAP. According to NYU, this one-time payment is not normally taxable either, as it is done in the same form as other LRAP payments (a loan from the school that is forgiven at the end of the year). From NYU's LRAP website:

"The amount of the one-time payment is designed to assure that any participant in Integrated LRAP is (at least) as well off as the participant would have been under Standard LRAP."

So, it seems to me that depending on either school's LRAP would not mean depending on PSLF. Does any of this information change anyone's opinions on my choices?

[lecsa]

I don't think PSLF will be capped for you, but I'm hardly confident about that. Anyways, do you really want to spend the next 14+ years of your life worrying about that as your debt continues to rise to unimaginable heights. Because I can promise you, you will be worrying about it - more days than not. Shit - you might be 190k at graduation, but you could be be what 210 by the time you're allowed to make that first IBR payment. And 220 by the time you're a year past graduation. How much are you going to owe in year 6???

And its going to take 14 years to get through the program, maybe more. You can't make an IBR/PAYE payment until you're 9 months past graduation, then you make 120 payments (if you are unemployed for a time that might slow you down further) then you must remain in PSLF eligible employment while they process forgiveness (nobody knows yet, but I'd be shocked if that processing is less than 3 months).

Do not borrow that kind of cash with PSLF as your plan.

Edit: 3 of the 14 years I'm referring to are the 3 years you're in school.

This is the best post in the thread.

It seems like OP is headstrong about going to NYU/CLS even though she wants PI.

I think it's stupid considering most PI is not prestige-oriented, but it's up to OP to learn the fault of her own ways.

Taking that into account, my advice is go ahead and get into 200k debt. Just don't come back to us complaining when you realize what a stupid mistake it was and you're living on less than non-legal PI people do. We warned you.

[middlemarch]

NYU has great PI placement, including in the Midwest/Minneapolis if you want it; I know someone who's from the Twin Cities and is returning there for PI after graduation. And since the school puts so much emphasis on PI, I find it highly unlikely that NYU would ever retroactively change their LRAP program for alumni already on it--that would be a huuuuuge PR nightmare--and the law school is not only well-financed, it's arguably the crown jewel of the whole university (the university president was a former law school dean, and the chairman of the board of trustees is a law school alum). If you want to settle in Minnesota, then taking a full-ride at UMN is a solid choice, esp. since it sounds like you're talented and would excel there. It's just that NYU is going to be more portable and will make it easier to find PI jobs nationwide.

I also disagree with the previous poster that "most PI is not prestige-oriented." While that might be literally true, I don't think it's accurate on the high-end, which you say you're interested in. A lot of government honors programs, fellowships (Skadden), sought-after PD offices (e.g. the Gideon's Promise partner schools, Bronx Defenders), impact litigation organizations (e.g. ACLU), etc. will choose from applicants with better resumes and clerkships than Biglaw.

[matilda0401]

It seems like OP is headstrong about going to NYU/CLS even though she wants PI.

I think it's stupid considering most PI is not prestige-oriented, but it's up to OP to learn the fault of her own ways.

Taking that into account, my advice is go ahead and get into 200k debt. Just don't come back to us complaining when you realize what a stupid mistake it was and you're living on less than non-legal PI people do. We warned you.

Just to clarify, I am not headstrong about going to NYU/CLS. I am strongly considering the U of MN. Both the U of MN route and the NYU/CLS route have drawbacks and advantages. I am investigating all of my options as thoroughly as possible, particularly since people have strongly advised me both ways. The more information, data, reasoning, etc. that is provided alongside that advice, the more helpful that advice is to me.

I am carefully considering all advice and information. Thank you to everyone who has been generous with their time and help!

[jbagelboy]

Considering you're midwest-oriented but somewhat prestigious PI-centric goals, I'm actually reconsidering Michigan here. Have you been able to speak with impartial current students at UMN about impact litigation opportunities and how successful grads are at navigating a competitive public interest market?