WUSTL ($$) vs. Illinois ($$$) vs. Emory ($$) Forum

[Daedalus]

Hello here's my information:

Schools: WUSTL with $25k/yr, Illinois with $40k/yr, Emory with $22k/yr
Total COA (my parents will be covering room and board): WUSTL $92K, Illinois $33K, Emory $117K, $51K if I live at home and parents cover part of tuition instead
-How you will be financing your COA? loans
-I am from the Atlanta area, went to undergraduate in Chicago.
-Career goals: obviously if I'm in the top quintile then Biglaw, but that's hardly something you can plan for as a 0L. I'd be fine with working midlaw (if such a thing is not a myth as so many seem to claim) or government work. Chicago and New York City are my preferred locations, but I have no problem with Atlanta.
-LSAT: 167, GPA: 2.95
-How many times you have taken the LSAT: twice

I also got into Wake Forest with $30k/yr and Indiana Maurer with $35k/yr but I don't really want to work in Indiana or North Carolina so those are off my list.

Right now I'm thinking of depositing at all three and see if I can further negotiate scholarship money. What do you think?

Cheers!

[DoveBodyWash]

Right now I'm thinking of depositing at all three and see if I can further negotiate scholarship money. What do you think?

This is probably what I would recommend for now. I think it's too soon to make a final decision

I think Emory with 51k (while living at home) is a great option on its face. But I understand that living at home for all 3 years of law school is probably harder than it sounds...But even if you lived at home for 1-2 years, it would save you from a significant chunk of debt. I've heard anecdotally that Emory has trouble placing grads in the Atlanta market, but if you have ties then you should be okay. Or you should at least have a good shot.

NYC skims the top students from all three schools and none of them are major feeders into NYC anyway, so I would disregard NYC for purposes of making the decision.

Illinois would probably give you the best chance at Chicago.

WUSTL sends people to Atlanta and Chicago, but it's usually kids that have ties. I don't know if that means you're precluded from those markets if you don't though.

If your offers don't change after negotiating, then I would take UIUC or Emory. It'll depend on whether you want Chicago or Atlanta and whether you're willing to live at home with your family for a part or all of law school.

[BigZuck]

Illinois for 33K total doesn't sound bad at all. I would do that.

[thebobs1987]

If you want Chicago, do Illinois for 33k COA. That's a good deal

[bugsy33]

Illinois, Emory, and WUSTL are all peer schools. Go to the cheapest school in the market you want to practice. Personally I'd go to UIUC, it'll give you a good chance at employment and you can easily service 33k in debt.

I'm a bit confused at your total costs of attendance though. Living expenses will be at least 50k at UIUC + your share of tuition (probably 9k/yr)

[thebobs1987]

Illinois, Emory, and WUSTL are all peer schools. Go to the cheapest school in the market you want to practice. Personally I'd go to UIUC, it'll give you a good chance at employment and you can easily service 33k in debt.

I'm a bit confused at your total costs of attendance though. Living expenses will be at least 50k at UIUC + your share of tuition (probably 9k/yr)

they said their parents were covering room and board

[bugsy33]

Illinois, Emory, and WUSTL are all peer schools. Go to the cheapest school in the market you want to practice. Personally I'd go to UIUC, it'll give you a good chance at employment and you can easily service 33k in debt.

I'm a bit confused at your total costs of attendance though. Living expenses will be at least 50k at UIUC + your share of tuition (probably 9k/yr)

they said their parents were covering room and board

Ah, I see my skimming skills need to be resharpened. That makes sense now.

UIUC is probably the best choice if you want Chi town, WUSTL for NY, but if you're serious about NY you should have applied to Fordham and gone on scholly.

[LET'S GET IT]

Illinois at that price sounds like a steal, especially considering you mentioned you are interested in Chicago. I would go there. (insert mandatory 0L disclaimer here).

[Daedalus]

Thanks for all the advice everyone! My scholarship at WUSTL was increased to $40k/yr, which makes the total COA (i.e., debt at graduation) ~$44K. This is making me really like WUSTL. 1) it has slightly better employment prospects and 2) while it may send fewer people to Chicago than UIUC, it gives more latitude in terms of placing outside the Midwest (say NYC or DC).

Would anyone else pick $44K COA at WUSTL over $33K COA at Illinois?

[Dredd_2017]

Hey Daedalus, I'm in pretty much exactly the situation you're in (It's ridiculous how close the numbers / money is).

My first concern (Like yours) is employment, and looking at the NLJ 2013 stats Illinois clocks in at 21.5% biglaw, WUSTL at 18.3%, and Emory at 13.7% (Yikes!). WUSTL sent 21 members of its 2013 class to federal or state clerkships, UIUC 12 (Class size of ~230 versus ~270 somewhat compensates for this), and Emory didn't send nearly enough to compensate for those biglaw numbers. I mention this because these are what I consider the "Best outcomes", with 25.7% of WUSTL grads getting jobs in this category while UIUC wins at 26.8% (Emory is below 20%).

If I had a full ride at each, I'd most likely pick WUSTL just like you seem to be leaning towards. I think its wider placement compared to Illinois gives it a serious edge, and Emory's placement into NYC isn't offset by its lower numbers. However, the main deciding factor for you should be Chicago. If Chicago would be fine, or even preferable, then you should definitely go to UIUC no contest. It's cheaper, living costs will be lower than even St. Louis, and almost all their biglaw is Chicago. If you DO NOT like Chicago, WUSTL becomes the bvious choice. Finally, if you really want to stay in your home city of Atlanta (And are willing to take a slightly lower chance at "Best outcomes") then Emory may be the best option for you, especially if you want to work in Atlanta.

Now if I can turn this around and ask you a question! How did you get WUSTL to up you to 40k/yr? I negotiated just like you and got a small increase, but still below yours. Did you negotiate twice, or have a full ride somewhere else you mentioned? Do you have any recommendations for how to negotiate with them?

[HRomanus]

Hey Daedalus, I'm in pretty much exactly the situation you're in (It's ridiculous how close the numbers / money is).

My first concern (Like yours) is employment, and looking at the NLJ 2013 stats Illinois clocks in at 21.5% biglaw, WUSTL at 18.3%, and Emory at 13.7% (Yikes!). WUSTL sent 21 members of its 2013 class to federal or state clerkships, UIUC 12 (Class size of ~230 versus ~270 somewhat compensates for this), and Emory didn't send nearly enough to compensate for those biglaw numbers. I mention this because these are what I consider the "Best outcomes", with 25.7% of WUSTL grads getting jobs in this category while UIUC wins at 26.8% (Emory is below 20%).

Are the NLJ numbers a fair definiton of BigLaw? I had always heard the standard definition was firms 101+ and federal clerkships. I would presume that Emory is disadvantaged in the NLJ 250 because SE firms are generally smaller than the markets WUSTL and Illinois recruit into. For example, Emory sends only sent 10% of its class to NY, while WUSTL sent 10% to NY and 12% to Illinois.

Comparing the other schools shows Illinois at 28.2%, WUSTL at 32.4%, and Emory at 25.7%. Granted, Emory is still behind, but the numbers aren't so concerning.

[Dredd_2017]

Are the NLJ numbers a fair definiton of BigLaw? I had always heard the standard definition was firms 101+ and federal clerkships. I would presume that Emory is disadvantaged in the NLJ 250 because SE firms are generally smaller than the markets WUSTL and Illinois recruit into. For example, Emory sends only sent 10% of its class to NY, while WUSTL sent 10% to NY and 12% to Illinois.

Comparing the other schools shows Illinois at 28.2%, WUSTL at 32.4%, and Emory at 25.7%. Granted, Emory is still behind, but the numbers aren't so concerning.

This is a fair point, but I rely on the NLJ 250 for two reasons. First an NLJ 250 firm is much more likely to pay market than the broader 101+ lawyers category, which is crucial when looking at servicing a large debt + interest load.

The second and far more cynical reason is that after two years of reading about law school I've become innately distrustful of self-published employment stats. When you look at T2 (Or even T4...) colleges that post completely absurd average salary data, you learn that sources external to law schools have a much higher value. The NLJ 250 seems like a stat that can't be gamed, so I rely on it heavily.

[Nomo]

One note: with the uptick in "staff attorneys" that are paid about half the biglaw rate its becoming harder to know how many of the NLJ250 grads are actually being paid the biglaw rate. I have no idea if these schools are feeding many people into staff attorney jobs, but it might be worth asking.

As a practicing attorney I can promise you that midlaw does exist, but it does not exist as a place where young lawyers go to work. Midlaw gets its attorneys from people with 5 years of experience who are exiting biglaw, a DA's office, small firms, and all kinds of other places depending on the exact firm and what it does.

I also worry that when you say you want biglaw - midlaw - government you're just throwing out things you don't understand. What attracts you to each of these fields? In some ways, the type of practice area you want to be in is the more important question. You don't necessarily have to nail that down now, but you should have some idea. Hopefully you already know if you prefer to work independently or in groups; if you need a predictable work flow; if you have skills in areas that relate to particular practice areas (finance, accounting, science, etc.); if you want direct client contact; if you have an entreprenurial nature, etc. The answers to these questions should give you some idea of what you want to do. And I wouldn't recommend attending law school in this day and age without some idea of what you want to do.

All that said, Illinois is almost certainly your best choice.

[Fiero85]

However, the main deciding factor for you should be Chicago. If Chicago would be fine, or even preferable, then you should definitely go to UIUC no contest. It's cheaper, living costs will be lower than even St. Louis, and almost all their biglaw is Chicago. If you DO NOT like Chicago, WUSTL becomes the bvious choice. Finally, if you really want to stay in your home city of Atlanta (And are willing to take a slightly lower chance at "Best outcomes") then Emory may be the best option for you, especially if you want to work in Atlanta.

This. You pretty much gotta go ahead and decide your target region of employment:

Chicago ---> UIUC
ATL ---> Emory and live at home to save $$$
Midwest in general, best chance at other big cities (besides Chi town and ATL) ---> WUSTL

I know that's hard sometimes but it's necessary for non T14 schools. Congrats on the successful negotiations. Good luck!