What's best for me? HLS vs. Chicago Forum

[jlamb555]

Schools I am considering: Harvard or Chicago

Location: I am from the East Coast and have no ties to a major city. I have no major preference for where to work although ideally I'd like to try the West Coast. Possibly San Francisco or L.A. and then back to NYC or D.C. later in life. I feel that the Harvard name might help me do this without ties however I am not at all firm in this preference.

My general career goals: Likely big law for at least a few years to pay off debt. Would also be very interested in a clerkship. Am somewhat undecided about the path after that but feel that I do not want to simply move in-house. High level government jobs, AUSA, state/government, and politics all intrigue me. As does a solo criminal law practice (although that might be impossible after the early career big law path?).

Other considerations: I know this should not be a significant factor but I very much preferred Harvard after visiting both ASW's. Chicago seemed to live up to its reputation. It doesn't make any sense to me for them to proudly talk about how hard their students work. And honestly, both current and admitted students appeared to fit the mold. I loved Harvard and believe I would be happier there. Early feelings are unreliable though so I know this should not be a major point to consider.

So what do you think? Updated with final scholarship amounts. Duke did not go up and Chicago is pretty much the same price now.

[aboutmydaylight]

Honestly man it feels like you want everyone to tell you Harvard. That's a lot of money but its not that much better at Chicago.

[jlamb555]

Honestly man it feels like you want everyone to tell you Harvard. That's a lot of money but its not that much better at Chicago.

Yeah the debt at both schools is concerning so hopefully I'll see some substantial scholarship increases. That said, I am not nearly as debt averse as many here.

[drawstring]

This cycle Duke seems to be pretty generous bumping up scholarships after requests for more $$. Have you started the negotiation process yet? You seem to be focusing on the other two, but how would you feel about Duke with extra $?

[jlamb555]

This cycle Duke seems to be pretty generous bumping up scholarships after requests for more $$. Have you started the negotiation process yet? You seem to be focusing on the other two, but how would you feel about Duke with extra $?

I have started with other schools in hopes that I can then leverage with Duke. I liked Duke much more than Chicago however the base level is concerning to me. If you are bottom 25% at Duke aren't you pretty much screwed? I have no idea how I will do in law school so this is scary in my opinion. It's why I've been mainly thinking about the other 2 where the percentage is much smaller.

[hcrimson2014]

You should try to monetize the value of H, Uchi, and Duke based on your own situation. Personally, I would put the difference between HS (H has a bigger name while S places slightly better which sort of balance out their value gap) and CC at the $80,000 range because you are exiting the T14 and entering the entirely different tier of HYS while the difference between CC and Duke is probably around the $30,000 range because the difference in placement outcome between CC and Duke is quite similar to the difference in placement between H and S which is marginal at best, but you will not get the prestige boost as most in the legal world and the general population (clients) will not view CC as being in a different league from Duke. (reference: http://www.lstscorereports.com/compare/ ... /stanford/)

I think it should ultimately come down to Duke or Harvard unless Chicago offers more aid, and choose one depending on how debt adverse you are. Either follow the money and go to Duke or follow the prestige and go to H, don't be stuck in the middle with mediocre monetary and name-recognition benefits. Uchi at best with their current offer will reduce your debt load from H by $85,000 which is significant but when put in the context of the total debt that you will still incur becomes a less meaningful difference. And the higher ranking of ccn is not worth $50,000 more than Duke which enjoys great visibility and placement power in major urban markets as well as better access to the less developed southern markets.

[rayiner]

Honestly man it feels like you want everyone to tell you Harvard. That's a lot of money but its not that much better at Chicago.

The fuck it isn't. $80k difference in cost of attendance is about $1,000 per month on your student loan. That's about 12-13% of your take-home pay in big law, or the price of leasing two BMW's. For ten years.

[jbagelboy]

You should try to monetize the value of H, Uchi, and Duke based on your own situation. Personally, I would put the difference between HS (H has a bigger name while S places slightly better which sort of balance out their value gap) and CC at the $80,000 range because you are exiting the T14 and entering the entirely different tier of HYS while the difference between CC and Duke is probably around the $30,000 range because the difference in placement outcome between CC and Duke is quite similar to the difference in placement between H and S which is marginal at best, but you will not get the prestige boost as most in the legal world and the general population (clients) will not view CC as being in a different league from Duke. (reference: http://www.lstscorereports.com/compare/ ... /stanford/)

I think it should ultimately come down to Duke or Harvard unless Chicago offers more aid, and choose one depending on how debt adverse you are. Either follow the money and go to Duke or follow the prestige and go to H, don't be stuck in the middle with mediocre monetary and name-recognition benefits. Uchi at best with their current offer will reduce your debt load from H by $85,000 which is significant but when put in the context of the total debt that you will still incur becomes a less meaningful difference. And the higher ranking of ccn is not worth $50,000 more than Duke which enjoys great visibility and placement power in major urban markets as well as better access to the less developed southern markets.

Wut. This is pretty bullshit-y. By your own logic, HS and CC have equal employment prospects (75-80%) so they should be valued much more closely than CC and Duke. Also quantifying "prestige" is idiotic, and your tiers seem like ex post justifications. Debt is debt: All these schools are prestigious.

If OP had specific goals where Harvard conferred an advantage - DC biglaw, fed agency work, tough secondary market, ect - then it would justify a cost difference for those positions, but not by virtue of some arbitrary metric.

[transferror]

Don't go a quarter million dollars in debt. Just don't. Duke for 160k is ok, but if you're unsure about biglaw, I'd look at taking a full ride from a regional in the 15-25 range.

[jlamb555]

Don't go a quarter million dollars in debt. Just don't. Duke for 160k is ok, but if you're unsure about biglaw, I'd look at taking a full ride from a regional in the 15-25 range.

Unfortunately I do not have any of these options this cycle. That said I am pretty set on the initial big law path although I would try to get some clerkship experience if possible.

[kaiser]

Given your career goals, you would be an absolute fool to go a quarter million dollars into debt. Chicago will easily get you biglaw and give you a very solid clerkship chance. Me personally, I would pick Duke to minimize the debt while still having a huge door open to biglaw. No doubt you would love Harvard, but you seriously don't want to be a quarter million dollars in debt, even if biglaw is the plan. As I'm sure grads will tell you, it isn't worth it.

[3L2014]

$270,000 in debt for biglaw, hope you love it, because the take home pay after the hours with that debt load will not be as high as you expect after interest...

[northwood]

Given your current options and your career goals, wouldn't it make sense to reapply to these schools and include the best regional school for your target markets, as well as your state flagship school early next cycle ( and use the summer to write compelling why school X essays) and see how your options pan out?


If you did that already, then you can disregard the above. However, given your goals and the current offers, I would go with Duke.

[hcrimson2014]

You should try to monetize the value of H, Uchi, and Duke based on your own situation. Personally, I would put the difference between HS (H has a bigger name while S places slightly better which sort of balance out their value gap) and CC at the $80,000 range because you are exiting the T14 and entering the entirely different tier of HYS while the difference between CC and Duke is probably around the $30,000 range because the difference in placement outcome between CC and Duke is quite similar to the difference in placement between H and S which is marginal at best, but you will not get the prestige boost as most in the legal world and the general population (clients) will not view CC as being in a different league from Duke. (reference: http://www.lstscorereports.com/compare/ ... /stanford/)

I think it should ultimately come down to Duke or Harvard unless Chicago offers more aid, and choose one depending on how debt adverse you are. Either follow the money and go to Duke or follow the prestige and go to H, don't be stuck in the middle with mediocre monetary and name-recognition benefits. Uchi at best with their current offer will reduce your debt load from H by $85,000 which is significant but when put in the context of the total debt that you will still incur becomes a less meaningful difference. And the higher ranking of ccn is not worth $50,000 more than Duke which enjoys great visibility and placement power in major urban markets as well as better access to the less developed southern markets.

Wut. This is pretty bullshit-y. By your own logic, HS and CC have equal employment prospects (75-80%) so they should be valued much more closely than CC and Duke. Also quantifying "prestige" is idiotic, and your tiers seem like ex post justifications. Debt is debt: All these schools are prestigious.

If OP had specific goals where Harvard conferred an advantage - DC biglaw, fed agency work, tough secondary market, ect - then it would justify a cost difference for those positions, but not by virtue of some arbitrary metric.

Debt is debt and without Duke in the picture, Uchi seems like a slightly better choice, but we need to remain logically consistent with our decisions and if op were to weigh debt more heavily, then he really shouldn't give up Duke and settle for UChi. On the other hand, if op has the resources then $80,000 is less significant and he/she should choose Harvard if op really wants the added benefits. Trying find the balance in this situation will leave op in a worse situation overall because going to Uchi means he/she will still incur very substantial debt (close to 200k) without a major increase in prestige nor the likelihood of PLACEMENT success as we are not talking about t1 vs CC vs H, OP is trying to choose between a T14 (with the 2nd highest placement success after penn outside of the T6 I might add), Uchi and Harvard.

[jbagelboy]

You should try to monetize the value of H, Uchi, and Duke based on your own situation. Personally, I would put the difference between HS (H has a bigger name while S places slightly better which sort of balance out their value gap) and CC at the $80,000 range because you are exiting the T14 and entering the entirely different tier of HYS while the difference between CC and Duke is probably around the $30,000 range because the difference in placement outcome between CC and Duke is quite similar to the difference in placement between H and S which is marginal at best, but you will not get the prestige boost as most in the legal world and the general population (clients) will not view CC as being in a different league from Duke. (reference: http://www.lstscorereports.com/compare/ ... /stanford/)

I think it should ultimately come down to Duke or Harvard unless Chicago offers more aid, and choose one depending on how debt adverse you are. Either follow the money and go to Duke or follow the prestige and go to H, don't be stuck in the middle with mediocre monetary and name-recognition benefits. Uchi at best with their current offer will reduce your debt load from H by $85,000 which is significant but when put in the context of the total debt that you will still incur becomes a less meaningful difference. And the higher ranking of ccn is not worth $50,000 more than Duke which enjoys great visibility and placement power in major urban markets as well as better access to the less developed southern markets.

Wut. This is pretty bullshit-y. By your own logic, HS and CC have equal employment prospects (75-80%) so they should be valued much more closely than CC and Duke. Also quantifying "prestige" is idiotic, and your tiers seem like ex post justifications. Debt is debt: All these schools are prestigious.

If OP had specific goals where Harvard conferred an advantage - DC biglaw, fed agency work, tough secondary market, ect - then it would justify a cost difference for those positions, but not by virtue of some arbitrary metric.

Debt is debt and without Duke in the picture, Uchi seems like a slightly better choice, but we need to remain logically consistent with our decisions and if op were to weigh debt more heavily, then he really shouldn't give up Duke and settle for UChi. On the other hand, if op has the resources then $80,000 is less significant and he/she should choose Harvard if op really wants the added benefits. Trying find the balance in this situation will leave op in a worse situation overall because going to Uchi means he/she will still incur very substantial debt (close to 200k) without a major increase in prestige nor the likelihood of PLACEMENT success as we are not talking about t1 vs CC vs H, OP is trying to choose between a T14 (with the 2nd highest placement success after penn outside of the T6 I might add), Uchi and Harvard.

I agree with what you are saying here. I don't think it is consistent with your previous erroneous statements.

[NoLieAbility]

I don't think you have bad options here. Three T-14 schools, two with scholarships and the third with an excellent LRAP. That being said, I picked Duke, but I'll add myself to the list of people who think that you should be looking at 15-25.

I think there are three completely valid reasons for electing to go to Harvard when you have money on the table from other schools: you're independently wealthy, you want to go in to academia, or you're dedicated to BigLaw. Assuming the first isn't true, you haven't indicated any interest in the second and you seem lukewarm on the third. Even if you were certain of wanting to be BigLaw bound, I'd still advocate for Duke, but if you told me that a wearing a Harvard sweatshirt meant that much to you, I wouldn't fault you for it.

As it stands, you seem somewhat unsure of the capacity in which you would like to practice. Given that, aim for the path which lets you keep your options open for as long as possible - a school with competitive exit options and reduced debt fits that description nicely. I think I'd be sitting out the cycle and applying to UT, UCLA and Vanderbilt if I were you, but if you're dedicated to starting your education in 2014, go with Duke.

[rayiner]

How do you not have a full-ride at some other T14 with a Harvard admit? I wouldn't go to a strong regional with full ride over Harvard, if only because I think anyone who got into Harvard should be getting major money at a T14. Cornell, Northwestern, Virginia, Michigan, possibly Penn should be giving full rides or near to it.

[TheSpanishMain]

Honestly man it feels like you want everyone to tell you Harvard. That's a lot of money but its not that much better at Chicago.

That said, I am not nearly as debt averse as many here.

Why are you so comfortable with debt? Is your family wealthy and willing to make the payments for you? That level of debt is just crushing. If a quarter million dollars in debt doesn't freak you out, you're either really naive or a far braver person than I.

I'm pretty debt averse and would always (if I had this option) pick a T14 full ride over HYS, so I admit I'm biased that way. I think a far better bet would've been a T14 full ride, but if that's not on the table I guess I vote Chicago or Duke...probably Duke.

[jk148706]

That kinda debt is crazy at H. I'd vote Duke.

[kaiser]

Honestly man it feels like you want everyone to tell you Harvard. That's a lot of money but its not that much better at Chicago.

That said, I am not nearly as debt averse as many here.

Why are you so comfortable with debt? Is your family wealthy and willing to make the payments for you? That level of debt is just crushing. If a quarter million dollars in debt doesn't freak you out, you're either really naive or a far braver person than I.

I'm pretty debt averse and would always (if I had this option) pick a T14 full ride over HYS, so I admit I'm biased that way. I think a far better bet would've been a T14 full ride, but if that's not on the table I guess I vote Chicago or Duke...probably Duke.

Most of us weren't too debt averse until we actually started paying off our debt and realized how much it is F'ing up our financial futures (and keep in mind, I'm talking about the people with the supposedly "best" employment outcomes). And that would be true for people in far less than a quarter million of debt. There is a difference between not being super debt averse, and somehow convincing yourself that going into a quarter million of debt is a solid course of action. In this economic climate, the best advice is to go to the school that allows you to maximize your employment prospects while subsequently minimizing your debt load. I definitely think Duke is the right choice among these 3.

[northwood]

Is a Harvard degree 2xs better than Duke? From a rough estimate, if OP were to go to Harvard over Duke that's approximately what H will cost him/her at repayment.

That is simply too much additional cost in my opinion...

[TheSpanishMain]

Most of us weren't too debt averse until we actually started paying off our debt and realized how much it is F'ing up our financial futures (and keep in mind, I'm talking about the people with the supposedly "best" employment outcomes). And that would be true for people in far less than a quarter million of debt. There is a difference between not being super debt averse, and somehow convincing yourself that going into a quarter million of debt is a solid course of action. In this economic climate, the best advice is to go to the school that allows you to maximize your employment prospects while subsequently minimizing your debt load. I definitely think Duke is the right choice among these 3.

I wonder if it just sounds less scary to people in the abstract. "Oh, debt is fine, I'll get a good job and pay it off!" sounds fine, but the actual day-to-day reality of that is pretty rough.

OP, you realize if you take on this debt, you're essentially locking yourself in to Big Law for a while, right? Something that most people seem to hate? Duke gives you a perfectly reasonable chance at Big Law, and you would be able to escape much earlier if you hate it.

[northwood]

OP, even if you get BigLaw from Harvard, how long do you think you will be working there? I ask this not to be snarky, but if you leave BigLaw ( and its big salary) after 3 years, how much will be left from your debt load? How will you be able to live a comfortable lifestyle while paying this debt down?

I think its important to consider life 5 years out of law school. If you know that you will be able to live as you want, then money isn't a problem. But for the vast majority of people, they money is something to seriously consider.

Again, not trying to be snarky, but just trying to help you make a decision.

[jlamb555]

Why are you so comfortable with debt? Is your family wealthy and willing to make the payments for you? That level of debt is just crushing. If a quarter million dollars in debt doesn't freak you out, you're either really naive or a far braver person than I.

I'm pretty debt averse and would always (if I had this option) pick a T14 full ride over HYS, so I admit I'm biased that way. I think a far better bet would've been a T14 full ride, but if that's not on the table I guess I vote Chicago or Duke...probably Duke.

I'm more comfortable with debt here because I do not see it as a massive risk but more as a life inconvenience. In fact, over 100k in debt from Duke actually feels a bit riskier to me. Correct me if I'm off but here is my thinking. At Harvard pretty much the entire class can get Big Law if they want. For the few that can't get Big Law it is very likely they can get some type of legal employment and even if that is low paying it will be supported by LIPP. I see no real risk of ending up in a position where you are starving/contemplating suicide or escaping to South America. At Duke a noticeable portion of the bottom of the class will strike out and some might not even find a job at all. I could be in debt until death.

With the debt I am looking at for the worst case scenario it appears to be about 3k a month for 10 years. That's clearly not good but I just don't find that as crushing as you state. In Big Law you will still be living off a quite good salary and it's not so much that lower paying jobs after will be forcing me into poverty. It'll be a pain in the ass and I won't be able to buy a house or save heavily during those years but I wonder if this is something I should be willing to take for that extra chance at the truly top level jobs.

[jlamb555]

OP, even if you get BigLaw from Harvard, how long do you think you will be working there? I ask this not to be snarky, but if you leave BigLaw ( and its big salary) after 3 years, how much will be left from your debt load? How will you be able to live a comfortable lifestyle while paying this debt down?

I think its important to consider life 5 years out of law school. If you know that you will be able to live as you want, then money isn't a problem. But for the vast majority of people, they money is something to seriously consider.

Again, not trying to be snarky, but just trying to help you make a decision.

Thanks for the help. I don't know exactly how long I would plan to work at Big Law. Maybe 4-6/7 years. Less if I hate the job and more, possibly even aim for partner somewhere, if I enjoy the job. I do not have a strong grasp on how much people make after lateraling out of big law. If you move into government positions or other options how much is the pay cut? My sense is many of these jobs will be ~100k+ but I'm not sure.