BU vs Minnesota Forum

[expat101]

Long time reader and first time poster. I appreciate any and all feedback here.

I am considering:
BU: COA ~131,000 (30k per year merit and need based)
Minnesota: ~101,000 (39k per year merit)

I will be financing entirely through loans, though I'll have enough saved to get set up and living in whatever city I choose.

I'm from Vermont, undergrad in Canada, and three years work experience in public relations in Boston. Remote family connection to Minnesota inspired that application, but no connection to the regions business world. Currently overseas, have lived abroad for three years total.

My honest career goal is (I'm bracing myself for it...) international work. I initially applied to law school because my LSAT was expiring this year, and I had always had the long term career goal of a lawyer, working in mid or small firm law. I also have an uncle who was a a prosecutor, and I was always interested in that area of law - which as an aside is one specialization I don't see discussed a lot on this board. Anyway, I realize that this post absolutely demonstrates a lack of focus that probably already has some of you shaking your head.

Over the past year I have become extremely interested in the foreign service. Before I go any further let me say I don't harbor any illusions about working at the L - I would be really happy I believe working as a consular officer for State. I have spoken to officials in the country I am living in, and they mentioned that about 40% of foreign service officers have law backgrounds, though law school is not the most direct path to the foreign service.

My LSAT was 171, GPA 3.2. I took the LSAT one time.

Thank you for bearing with me on this lengthy post. I truly appreciate any help or advice, and understand I must come off ignorant on the practicality of LS. Given my interest in working for State, is either school a good choice? At those prices? Worth a focus on international law? As you can probably tell from my work experience, I am an older candidate, and since I am turning to a forum for advice I'm obviously casting about a bit. But any help or guidance in this matter is greatly appreciated. Cheers

[rad lulz]

.

[californiauser]

You don't need to waste 100k on a non-elite JD to do international work

[IAFG]

These are regional schools. With those shit ties your dead in the water in MN so that's not a real option for you.

[expat101]

Not only are those schools way too expensive, but they are bad for your nebulous international goals

Retake or don't go

Or go to a cheaper place and reevaluate your career goals

rad lulz - thanks so much for the quick reply! I agree the schools are so expensive, thanks to the TLS calculator for helping me see that - 80% seems so amazing when you come in with no idea what to expect. And I'm thinking of printing 'nebulous international goals' on a business card.

As for a cheaper place, 80% was the best I got this time around, and since my LSAT expires that would make a retake mandatory. It's tough to let go of when its been your default plan for so long, but I definitely appreciate your advice and perspective. Thanks again

[expat101]

You don't need to waste 100k on a non-elite JD to do international work

californiauser - thanks as well for the quick reply! That seems to be the advice I'm getting - a JD (or non-elite like you say) isn't worth the price to get into the field I want. Do you have any perspective to offer on better next steps towards consular work? Between internet research and talking to an official I know at State it seems prioritizing foreign languages and an international relations MA is a solid choice, or maybe I'm better of just applying ASAP and being willing to retake as many times as needed. Anyway, thanks again for the response

[expat101]

These are regional schools. With those shit ties your dead in the water in MN so that's not a real option for you.

Thanks IAFG for the response! I've seen you post elsewhere in regards to regional schools, so I appreciate your advice here. To follow up - I understand that regional connections are the most important for big, mid and small law jobs in a marketplace - but how do regional schools fair for government positions? Or is that the domain of the t14, and a non-elite like my choices faces dim prospects? Thanks so much, always appreciated.

[thebobs1987]

With a 171 these schools should be free even with a 3.2. You should also have some t14 options. I had a similar GPA and lower LSAT last year and got more money from both these schools. Did you hear from any other schools?

[expat101]

With a 171 these schools should be free even with a 3.2. You should also have some t14 options. I had a similar GPA and lower LSAT last year and got more money from both these schools. Did you hear from any other schools?

That is interesting to hear - I guess the rest of my application did not stand up as impressively. I was waitlisted at both t14s I applied to, though I might have aimed too high with Columbia and Penn. I was accepted to Vanderbilt with 20k a year merit, no connections to Nashville. Also in at BC, 20k a year. Suffolk in Boston was a safety, only offered 5k a year though, which I don't really understand. Did you end up accepting at either of these schools? Thanks for the input, I appreciate all the responses.

The input is actually making me lean towards depositing at BU, due to my family, friends and all work connections there. Though I understand the advice to rethink things, I've come too far to let deposit money stop me at this point. Thanks again to all, and any further advice is appreciated!

[The Dark Shepard]

When did you apply? With that LSAT, you should have better offers. Have you considered sitting out a year and applying the first day for the next application seasons? It could be a difference both in a higher ranked school AND in terms of money saved

[thebobs1987]

With a 171 these schools should be free even with a 3.2. You should also have some t14 options. I had a similar GPA and lower LSAT last year and got more money from both these schools. Did you hear from any other schools?

That is interesting to hear - I guess the rest of my application did not stand up as impressively. I was waitlisted at both t14s I applied to, though I might have aimed too high with Columbia and Penn. I was accepted to Vanderbilt with 20k a year merit, no connections to Nashville. Also in at BC, 20k a year. Suffolk in Boston was a safety, only offered 5k a year though, which I don't really understand. Did you end up accepting at either of these schools? Thanks for the input, I appreciate all the responses.

The input is actually making me lean towards depositing at BU, due to my family, friends and all work connections there. Though I understand the advice to rethink things, I've come too far to let deposit money stop me at this point. Thanks again to all, and any further advice is appreciated!

I didn't, I accepted a big scholarship at my state flagship. If you go to to BU, ask for more money. 130k in debt requires big law and while BU has decent big law placement, it's not the likely outcome.

Like Dark Shepard said, if you applied late, you might want to reapply next year early. You should get close to a full at BU and BC and in at Cornell and probably one or two other t14s

[expat101]

When did you apply? With that LSAT, you should have better offers. Have you considered sitting out a year and applying the first day for the next application seasons? It could be a difference both in a higher ranked school AND in terms of money saved

I applied in late November to all of the schools, and ED to BU (obviously passed over). Interesting to hear that my offers should have been better, I was initially excited at 30k from BU and 39K from UMN, but when it is put in the context of CoL the numbers are scary.

I think your advice is really solid - my only problem is my LSAT will expire this year, so I would need to retake, and don't know if I can swing a 171 again. I fear I might find myself completely on the outside looking in at that point.

[expat101]

With a 171 these schools should be free even with a 3.2. You should also have some t14 options. I had a similar GPA and lower LSAT last year and got more money from both these schools. Did you hear from any other schools?

That is interesting to hear - I guess the rest of my application did not stand up as impressively. I was waitlisted at both t14s I applied to, though I might have aimed too high with Columbia and Penn. I was accepted to Vanderbilt with 20k a year merit, no connections to Nashville. Also in at BC, 20k a year. Suffolk in Boston was a safety, only offered 5k a year though, which I don't really understand. Did you end up accepting at either of these schools? Thanks for the input, I appreciate all the responses.

The input is actually making me lean towards depositing at BU, due to my family, friends and all work connections there. Though I understand the advice to rethink things, I've come too far to let deposit money stop me at this point. Thanks again to all, and any further advice is appreciated!

I didn't, I accepted a big scholarship at my state flagship. If you go to to BU, ask for more money. 130k in debt requires big law and while BU has decent big law placement, it's not the likely outcome.

Like Dark Shepard said, if you applied late, you might want to reapply next year early. You should get close to a full at BU and BC and in at Cornell and probably one or two other t14s

Congrats on your scholly, sounds like you had a great cycle! I think with 80% at UMN I won't get anything higher unless they offer a full ride, unlikely this late in the game. I went back to BU with UMN's offer and was bumped to 30k - any advice on how to approach the school for more financing given the (impending) deposit deadline?

Appreciate your advice and I will consider all my options - you can see above my response regarding early application and the LSAT for re-applying. Too bad - I was excited at the prospect of my offers, but I see now that without a better focus on what I want from law school and a greater financial incentive, accepting this year may be risky.

I do believe I will deposit this year, the deadline is just too close and I've been too back and forth to let this completely slide by. Does anyone have any advice on deposit strategies, and negotiating before and after the deposit deadline?

Thanks again to all who have read, voted and posted.

[thebobs1987]

That is interesting to hear - I guess the rest of my application did not stand up as impressively. I was waitlisted at both t14s I applied to, though I might have aimed too high with Columbia and Penn. I was accepted to Vanderbilt with 20k a year merit, no connections to Nashville. Also in at BC, 20k a year. Suffolk in Boston was a safety, only offered 5k a year though, which I don't really understand. Did you end up accepting at either of these schools? Thanks for the input, I appreciate all the responses.

The input is actually making me lean towards depositing at BU, due to my family, friends and all work connections there. Though I understand the advice to rethink things, I've come too far to let deposit money stop me at this point. Thanks again to all, and any further advice is appreciated![/quote]

I didn't, I accepted a big scholarship at my state flagship. If you go to to BU, ask for more money. 130k in debt requires big law and while BU has decent big law placement, it's not the likely outcome.

Like Dark Shepard said, if you applied late, you might want to reapply next year early. You should get close to a full at BU and BC and in at Cornell and probably one or two other t14s[/quote]


Congrats on your scholly, sounds like you had a great cycle! I think with 80% at UMN I won't get anything higher unless they offer a full ride, unlikely this late in the game. I went back to BU with UMN's offer and was bumped to 30k - any advice on how to approach the school for more financing given the (impending) deposit deadline?

Appreciate your advice and I will consider all my options - you can see above my response regarding early application and the LSAT for re-applying. Too bad - I was excited at the prospect of my offers, but I see now that without a better focus on what I want from law school and a greater financial incentive, accepting this year may be risky.

I do believe I will deposit this year, the deadline is just too close and I've been too back and forth to let this completely slide by. Does anyone have any advice on deposit strategies, and negotiating before and after the deposit deadline?

Thanks again to all who have read, voted and posted.[/quote]

Did you tell BU about Vandy? See if BU can at least increase it where your costs would be under 100k. I think that's more reasonable for BU. I'd also go back to UMN and try to get them to give you a full ride, worst they say is no. You can also sign up for the LSAT in June and see if you can at least match it or even come close. I'd say if you get the same score or even within a point or two, wait a cycle and reapply a little more strategically to the lower t14 and probably have some good reasons for why you want to be a lawyer in your PS. That will help a little.

[cinephile]

Nepal sounds like the best option for your goals.

[expat101]

That is interesting to hear - I guess the rest of my application did not stand up as impressively. I was waitlisted at both t14s I applied to, though I might have aimed too high with Columbia and Penn. I was accepted to Vanderbilt with 20k a year merit, no connections to Nashville. Also in at BC, 20k a year. Suffolk in Boston was a safety, only offered 5k a year though, which I don't really understand. Did you end up accepting at either of these schools? Thanks for the input, I appreciate all the responses.

The input is actually making me lean towards depositing at BU, due to my family, friends and all work connections there. Though I understand the advice to rethink things, I've come too far to let deposit money stop me at this point. Thanks again to all, and any further advice is appreciated!

I didn't, I accepted a big scholarship at my state flagship. If you go to to BU, ask for more money. 130k in debt requires big law and while BU has decent big law placement, it's not the likely outcome.

Like Dark Shepard said, if you applied late, you might want to reapply next year early. You should get close to a full at BU and BC and in at Cornell and probably one or two other t14s[/quote]


Congrats on your scholly, sounds like you had a great cycle! I think with 80% at UMN I won't get anything higher unless they offer a full ride, unlikely this late in the game. I went back to BU with UMN's offer and was bumped to 30k - any advice on how to approach the school for more financing given the (impending) deposit deadline?

Appreciate your advice and I will consider all my options - you can see above my response regarding early application and the LSAT for re-applying. Too bad - I was excited at the prospect of my offers, but I see now that without a better focus on what I want from law school and a greater financial incentive, accepting this year may be risky.

I do believe I will deposit this year, the deadline is just too close and I've been too back and forth to let this completely slide by. Does anyone have any advice on deposit strategies, and negotiating before and after the deposit deadline?

Thanks again to all who have read, voted and posted.[/quote]

Did you tell BU about Vandy? See if BU can at least increase it where your costs would be under 100k. I think that's more reasonable for BU. I'd also go back to UMN and try to get them to give you a full ride, worst they say is no. You can also sign up for the LSAT in June and see if you can at least match it or even come close. I'd say if you get the same score or even within a point or two, wait a cycle and reapply a little more strategically to the lower t14 and probably have some good reasons for why you want to be a lawyer in your PS. That will help a little.[/quote]


That is a lot of great advice in a short paragraph. Thank you very much for taking the time to read and respond. It's a great plan to see if I can get more this summer, with the fallback of reapplying next cycle. Do you know anything about the likelihood of schools increasing aid offers over the next few months, or is it pretty much at the "it can't hurt" stage now?
Don't mean to be overly effusive, but I really appreciate the advice and perspective. My best to you, and cheers!

[expat101]

Nepal sounds like the best option for your goals.

You like UKathmandu's international law program? Or are you trying to claim first dibs when I renounce my possessions?

[expat101]

Not only are those schools way too expensive, but they are bad for your nebulous international goals

Retake or don't go

Or go to a cheaper place and reevaluate your career goals

Hi rad lulz - I wanted to follow up with a specific question to your post. I noticed that on a separate topic (the "law professionals tell you not to go to you top choice") - you mentioned that BU would be worth it at 50%. With 30k from them, my offer is at about 66% - so when you say too expensive do you mean specifically for my situation, or should I be factoring any merit scholarships as percentages of the full COA? Given how large CoL is for most cities, I just am trying to understand how one would bring the total COA down from merit scholarships that apply to tuition alone.
Again, I'm just looking for more information - I've mentioned before I was enthused getting over 60% and 80% from these schools, but putting it in the context of COA and the advice I've gotten on this site has cast that in a different light.
Appreciate as always any insight and advice. Thanks in advance.

[cinephile]

Nepal sounds like the best option for your goals.

You like UKathmandu's international law program? Or are you trying to claim first dibs when I renounce my possessions?

The latter.

But seriously, why aren't you just taking the foreign service exam. The difference in pay if you have a JD versus if you don't is only 5k. There was a guy in my 1L class who had applied before and got in during the middle of 1L. So he dropped out and took the job, which is great, but it'd' just be easier and cheaper not to be a position where you need drop out - apply now and wait to hear back. Especially since it doesn't seem that law is your real passion and you wouldn't be happy being a family lawyer or doing any other kind of small law, it doesn't seem worth it for you.

[minnbills]

You won't be able to cover 100k coming out of the U.

[Nomo]

I honestly think you should go to Nepal. When you come back I think you should take the foreign service exam.

Law School is not your best option. I know you feel like letting you're getting nothing out of that 171 if you don't attend school. But, you are getting something - you're getting 3 years of your life and a wide variety of other possibilities. Just because you have a 171 doesn't mean you should use it.

[expat101]

Nepal sounds like the best option for your goals.

You like UKathmandu's international law program? Or are you trying to claim first dibs when I renounce my possessions?

The latter.

But seriously, why aren't you just taking the foreign service exam. The difference in pay if you have a JD versus if you don't is only 5k. There was a guy in my 1L class who had applied before and got in during the middle of 1L. So he dropped out and took the job, which is great, but it'd' just be easier and cheaper not to be a position where you need drop out - apply now and wait to hear back. Especially since it doesn't seem that law is your real passion and you wouldn't be happy being a family lawyer or doing any other kind of small law, it doesn't seem worth it for you.

Thanks for the advice and the perspective. I think I will sign up for the foreign service exam this June. The idea that leads me back towards law school is the fear of missing out on the foreign service, then being stuck in the fall out of school and out of the service. I have a job now I can continue at, but I am already an older candidate, and as the years add up on the resume without a significant change it becomes harder and harder to escape the current situation. I do appreciate your advice, thanks for taking the time to reply.

[expat101]

You won't be able to cover 100k coming out of the U.

Thanks for posting. Is that because of their specific placement with big law? From the 'minn' in your name, did you go to the U? Could you add anything further about why what is - I'm not saying I don't believe you, as what you said is echoed by many others here, just came to this board seeking advice and perspective, so I appreciate any input you have. Thanks

[expat101]

I honestly think you should go to Nepal. When you come back I think you should take the foreign service exam.

Law School is not your best option. I know you feel like letting you're getting nothing out of that 171 if you don't attend school. But, you are getting something - you're getting 3 years of your life and a wide variety of other possibilities. Just because you have a 171 doesn't mean you should use it.

Thanks for the post, and for your advice. You touched directly on a main fear of mine, of not properly using that score. People have already noted that with a 171 I should be seeing more money from these schools, so I certainly have anxiety about maximizing what I can do with the score. But your perspective is valuable. I am really not sure what I will do at this point - so I've deposited at BU as its a relatively small cost compared to missing this whole cycle. However I need to better evaluate a range of choices moving forward. Difficult to move away from what had seemed like a sure thing so recently.
Appreciate all the help I've received here.

[minnbills]

You won't be able to cover 100k coming out of the U.

Thanks for posting. Is that because of their specific placement with big law? From the 'minn' in your name, did you go to the U? Could you add anything further about why what is - I'm not saying I don't believe you, as what you said is echoed by many others here, just came to this board seeking advice and perspective, so I appreciate any input you have. Thanks

Yes, I go here. There just aren't many jobs in the state that pay six figures for recent grads, and it is quite difficult to get a biglaw job out of state. My guess is there are about 15-30 people in my class who have summer jobs with big firms, and there are 200 people in my class.

Most grads get a legal job, paying somewhere between 30-70k. That is my conclusion after attending for two years. I get the sense there is a lot of upward mobility here, though.

If you want a legal job in Minnesota, and can minimize your debt, the U can be a great choice. However, 100k in debt is too much for this school.

I'll have somewhere between 60-70k in debt when I graduate, and I am pretty nervous about how I am going to pay for that.

Feel free to follow up with more questions, or PM me.

edit: FWIW I think you should go to Nepal, and that has nothing to do with law school. It's not every day you get to do something like that. Take advantage of these kinds of opportunities when you can. Law school will be here when you come back, and you will probably score just as well!