The fundamental problem with 0L's. Forum

rayiner · Post by **rayiner** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:04 pm

You can't tell 0L's not to go to law school or at least not to take on debt to do so. Take an article like this: http://www.rosestreet.net/?p=28. 0L's will ignore him because "he sounds bitter." They don't want to listen to people who went to law school and had it turn out badly.

At the same time, they won't listen to people who went to law school and had it turn out well. When associates at big law firms tell them not to go, they say "he's a hypocrite." They don't want to hear from somebody who went to law school and won the dice roll.

For half of everyone, law school will not lead to gainful employment. Among the other half, 80% will not get a big firm that justifies the crippling debt. Of those who do get big law, half will leave or be pushed out within three years, long before paying off loans.

I'm not down on the legal profession. I love being a lawyer. But the debt is crippling, and only a small fraction of outcomes will justify the debt.

MarkRenton · Post by **MarkRenton** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:20 pm

unodostres · Post by **unodostres** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:35 pm

Confirmation bias. Shits real and sadly, these 0L's suffer that don't read into it more.

How do you feel about the students who do not take on any debt to go to law school? I've completely scrapped the idea of T14, only because I feel that USC/UCLA on a near full ride is the only way I want to go to law school in the region I would like to practice in. Too many stories and too many sad ones at that to take on six figures to slave away for years and years.

kalvano · Post by **kalvano** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:02 pm

My favorite is "I will be xxx rank and make law review because I am confident in my abilities."

thesealocust · Post by **thesealocust** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:03 pm

But I love to argue!

ggocat · Post by **ggocat** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:09 pm

kalvano wrote:My favorite is "I will be xxx rank and make law review because I am confident in my abilities."

This. "I got a 4.0 in my senior year of undergrad. I will crush law school."

ph14 · Post by **ph14** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:14 pm

0L opinions on quality of life in big law firms are especially bad.

rad lulz · Post by **rad lulz** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:22 pm

timbs4339 · Post by **timbs4339** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:22 pm

Sometimes I feel like Sisyphus. Oh well. I do hope I've convinced at least one person not to ruin their life.

KD35 · Post by **KD35** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:26 pm

What also doesn't help is when one of those special snowflakes actually ends up at the top of their class. Thus passing down the special-ness to others.

L’Étranger · Post by **L’Étranger** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:26 pm

ph14 wrote:0L opinions on quality of life in big law firms are especially bad.

What professions as a whole (i.e. not just in individual cases) offer the same pay with better quality life?

Edit: Never mind. Missed the point of the thread.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:30 pm

unodostres wrote:Confirmation bias. Shits real and sadly, these 0L's suffer that don't read into it more.

How do you feel about the students who do not take on any debt to go to law school? I've completely scrapped the idea of T14, only because I feel that USC/UCLA on a near full ride is the only way I want to go to law school in the region I would like to practice in. Too many stories and too many sad ones at that to take on six figures to slave away for years and years.

I agree with debt being the crusher. A full ride to a 14-40 (in the region you want to practice) is a better choice than six figures of debt from T14 imo.

With what I know now, I could never advise leaving a job paying over $75k with 40/45 hour work weeks (even if there is no advancement alternative) or 100k + debt for any legal education.

Mal Reynolds · Post by **Mal Reynolds** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:34 pm

L’Étranger wrote:
ph14 wrote:0L opinions on quality of life in big law firms are especially bad.
What professions as a whole (i.e. not just in individual cases) offer the same pay with better quality life?

Edit: Never mind. Missed the point of the thread.

LOL

You are the point of the thread, brother.

moonman157 · Post by **moonman157** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:42 pm

What about for the 0Ls who want to do international human rights law? Surely it's worth it for them.

rayiner · Post by **rayiner** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:44 pm

KD35 wrote:What also doesn't help is when one of those special snowflakes actually ends up at the top of their class. Thus passing down the special-ness to others.

Lots of special snowflakes end up at the top of the class. Then they go work for Davis Polk. And then get axed as a third year because they just don't like working at a large law firm.

People who love to write, people who love to think, people who think they "love the law" are the hardest hit. If you love the study of law, you should be a political science professor, not a lawyer. Most people who are smart enough to get hired at a large law firm are too smart to enjoy the drudgery of the work. That is, by far, the reason half leave within three years. It takes a unique mix of intelligence and lack of intellectual curiosity to stick past that.

IAFG · Post by **IAFG** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:47 pm

KD35 wrote:What also doesn't help is when one of those special snowflakes actually ends up at the top of their class. Thus passing down the special-ness to others.

So much this. "I read [poster]'s guide to crushing 1L so I can't lose." Never mind that half the people who followed the exact same approach and put in the same amount of time had a different outcome.

Not that it's so great to crush LS. Congrats on landing that gig at a prestigious sweatshop.

unodostres · Post by **unodostres** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:13 pm

IAFG wrote:
KD35 wrote:What also doesn't help is when one of those special snowflakes actually ends up at the top of their class. Thus passing down the special-ness to others.
So much this. "I read [poster]'s guide to crushing 1L so I can't lose." Never mind that half the people who followed the exact same approach and put in the same amount of time had a different outcome.

Not that it's so great to crush LS. Congrats on landing that gig at a prestigious sweatshop.

For every guide to LS, I think of how many had failed.

It's quite funny because the LSAT tests faulty reasoning and gaps in logic, yet, people apply that very reasoning, faulty that is, to their admissions process.

Uhh...

LeninLunchbox · Post by **LeninLunchbox** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:23 pm

Everything else aside, I don't see why the article linked to is something 0Ls particularly need to know and accept. Biglaw is up or out, everyone knows that. Most lawyers don't become biglaw partners, everyone knows that. His not advancing (being fired) actually sounds lot more fair than some other stories I've heard. By his own admission he wasn't going out of his way for work, wasn't particularly enthusiastic about the job, and didn't have an adversarial mindset. Then he got fired, in a system where 50%+ of people are fired, for not going out of his way for work, not being particularly enthusiastic about the job, and not having an adversarial mindset.

If anything I think something like this would encourage 0Ls to apply. It practically begs for a special snowflake reply.

sublime · Post by **sublime** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:35 pm

IAFG · Post by **IAFG** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:40 pm

sublime wrote:Yea, this article doesn't make your point very well. I agree with you generally, but a white shoe associate who leaves before 5 on a weekday to read a novel probably isn't the tragedy you want to be presenting.

It was an entertaining read though so tyft.

If there was no work, there was no fucking work.

sublime · Post by **sublime** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:43 pm

jk148706 · Post by **jk148706** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:47 pm

But all you have to do is "work hard"

rad lulz · Post by **rad lulz** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:48 pm

IAFG · Post by **IAFG** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:50 pm

Yeah don't gotta be told there was no work. There was no work.

sublime · Post by **sublime** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:51 pm

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