Harvard @ sticker for PI -- is this crazy?! Forum

zazmo2 · Post by **zazmo2** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:36 pm

Is going to Harvard at sticker and paying the entire cost of attendance through loans absolutely crazy for someone who wants to pursue PI? Like is this basically a non-option?

As someone accepted to Harvard, I have scholarships at some T-14s. But I just cannot see myself being happy at the schools where I've been offered the most money (Duke, Cornell). Then there are schools where I think I could be happy where I've been offered just a little money (NYU, UChi), but not enough money to compete with the basic fact that I really, really, desperately want to attend Harvard. Visiting Harvard felt like coming home, even though I have no ties to the area and had never been before. I just love it there already and now it's hard to imagine going anywhere else.

I want to do PI/nonprofit work -- starting salary of $45k is a reasonable expectation for my goals. I know about LIPP, but is that really enough to make this a reasonable life choice? I feel fairly confident I could get the kind of job I want out of a lower-ranked school, which makes this seem very irrational. But who wants to be unhappy for three years?

Basically my question is, is it certifiably insane to go to Harvard without family support, major savings, or financial aid for a PI goal that's probably attainable from a less expensive school? Do people even do that? Stats say roughly 45 people go PI out of Harvard in every graduating class and presumably they aren't homeless, but I wonder how many have other sources of support?

Essentially, is my happiness worth $250,000?!

Lannister_JD · Post by **Lannister_JD** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:07 pm

Doesn't LIPP cover everything if you make $45k and the job is LIPP eligible? Pretty sure going to hls would be the same financially as taking a full ride somewhere if you do PI.

MistakenGenius · Post by **MistakenGenius** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:11 pm

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MistakenGenius · Post by **MistakenGenius** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:13 pm

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Lannister_JD · Post by **Lannister_JD** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:24 pm

MistakenGenius wrote:
Lannister_JD wrote:Doesn't LIPP cover everything if you make $45k and the job is LIPP eligible? Pretty sure going to hls would be the same financially as taking a full ride somewhere if you do PI.
Not quite. Yes, it will pay off the debt the same, but it basically enslaves you to those low income jobs for years. If he took a free ride and hated PI, then he could pick up the pieces and get a high paying job, that's not the case with LIPP.

Yeah, there are caveats. But I don't know about being "enslaved to low income jobs." As long as op is ok with just getting by, I think hls is fine. It's more like being enslaved to a lipp eligible job or a high paying one.

jbagelboy · Post by **jbagelboy** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:05 am

How much money at NYU? It's LRAP is superior to Harvard's (barring major changes to PLSF).

There's nothing wrong with attending sticker at Harvard if you don't have big $$ at CCN, but it seems somewhat unnecessary for a low profile goals in the public sector. Harvard's advantage over other T14s or regional schools shows in Federal agency or niche prestigious PI (ACLU ect.) placement, or for clerking on the federal circuit. I wouldn't spend $250,000 there to be a public defender.

It's also likely that your career goals will change in law school, and statistically, you're most likely going to end up at a large firm with all the Duke and Cornell kids. But you're not crazy for securing the extra placement cushion Harvard confers over those schools.

jojobean7 · Post by **jojobean7** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:39 pm

Have you tried negotiating for more money at NYU or Chicago?

ThinkNegative · Post by **ThinkNegative** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:56 pm

I'd say go to Harvard unless you somehow get more money from a T6.

— I know people who are committed PI attorneys who come from unremarkable middle-class backgrounds and have paid off their entire sticker-price debts via LRAP from HYS. It's definitely not insane; it requires a sustained commitment to sacrificing some of your material comfort in order to do what you think is right/interesting.

— HYS is better than isolated lower T14s for *any* kind of PI, including direct service. People who think it's easy to get a public defender job, especially at the best-known offices, are gravely misinformed. Yes, they're less preftige-focused than internationally known impact orgs, but the jobs are insanely competitive based on different factors. You'd have better luck getting a job at a local PD by going to a close-by regional than from a lower T14 in the middle of nowhere (Duke, Cornell). HYS however will help you get your foot in the door at places like Bronx Defenders, Public Defender Service of Washinton D.C., etc., and will at least catch the attention of anyone hiring wherever you're applying.

— If it turns out you're not as committed to PI as you think you are, you'll have better options from HLS anyway.

But you're right to think long and hard about what this will mean for you. Even though I think HLS is the right choice, I'd never call taking out that amount of debt an obvious or easy decision.

lecsa · Post by **lecsa** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:54 pm

I think it's crazy to pay for law school, period, if you want PI.

Most PI orgs are not that prestige-oriented. A lot of PI requires you to volunteer for free for at least a year before hiring. And, even if you think money doesn't matter now, try living off 50k in a big city with student loans.

If you're gunning for "prestigious PI," there are very few positions available, so I wouldn't go in betting on it.

worldtraveler · Post by **worldtraveler** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:57 pm

What kind of PI?

I'm getting really tired of asking this question.

quijotesca1011 · Post by **quijotesca1011** » Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:43 am

lecsa wrote:I think it's crazy to pay for law school, period, if you want PI.

Most PI orgs are not that prestige-oriented. A lot of PI requires you to volunteer for free for at least a year before hiring. And, even if you think money doesn't matter now, try living off 50k in a big city with student loans.

If you're gunning for "prestigious PI," there are very few positions available, so I wouldn't go in betting on it.

although if you are making 50 K with LIPP you'll have next to no student loans… under harvard's LIPP, $800 annually, $66.67 per month. So it's pretty similar to someone coming out after taking a scholarship and accepting that same 50 K job, no? Just to play devil's advocate.

lecsa · Post by **lecsa** » Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:49 am

quijotesca1011 wrote:
lecsa wrote:I think it's crazy to pay for law school, period, if you want PI.

Most PI orgs are not that prestige-oriented. A lot of PI requires you to volunteer for free for at least a year before hiring. And, even if you think money doesn't matter now, try living off 50k in a big city with student loans.

If you're gunning for "prestigious PI," there are very few positions available, so I wouldn't go in betting on it.
although if you are making 50 K with LIPP you'll have next to no student loans… under harvard's LIPP, $800 annually, $66.67 per month. So it's pretty similar to someone coming out after taking a scholarship and accepting that same 50 K job, no? Just to play devil's advocate.

Is that permanent though? The gov is proposing to limit PLSF for instance.

I'm just not comfortable relying on any of these programs in case they pull the rug on me.

quijotesca1011 · Post by **quijotesca1011** » Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:54 am

lecsa wrote:
Is that permanent though? The gov is proposing to limit PLSF for instance.

I'm just not comfortable relying on any of these programs in case they pull the rug on me.

something Im trying to figure out also, but food for thought from the LIPP site:

" [the LIPP] is not structured to require participation in the Federal Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program, which is an all-or-nothing program that requires a minimum of 10-years in public service jobs to qualify for any forgiveness benefit"

So it seems like the 10 year forgiveness is at stake but the LIPP not as much. Can someone more knowledgable on the subject than I comment as to whether that is accurate?

lecsa · Post by **lecsa** » Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:56 am

quijotesca1011 wrote:
lecsa wrote:
quijotesca1011 wrote:
lecsa wrote:I think it's crazy to pay for law school, period, if you want PI.

Most PI orgs are not that prestige-oriented. A lot of PI requires you to volunteer for free for at least a year before hiring. And, even if you think money doesn't matter now, try living off 50k in a big city with student loans.

If you're gunning for "prestigious PI," there are very few positions available, so I wouldn't go in betting on it.
although if you are making 50 K with LIPP you'll have next to no student loans… under harvard's LIPP, $800 annually, $66.67 per month. So it's pretty similar to someone coming out after taking a scholarship and accepting that same 50 K job, no? Just to play devil's advocate.
Is that permanent though? The gov is proposing to limit PLSF for instance.

I'm just not comfortable relying on any of these programs in case they pull the rug on me.
something Im trying to figure out also, but food for thought from the LIPP site:

" [the LIPP] is not structured to require participation in the Federal Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program, which is an all-or-nothing program that requires a minimum of 10-years in public service jobs to qualify for any forgiveness benefit"

So it seems like the 10 year forgiveness is at stake but the LIPP not as much. Is that accurate?

I don't know too much about this, but based on that excerpt they are two different programs and LIPP isn't affected by PSLF.

That's not my point though. I'm saying Harvard might pull the rug on this for whatever reason in the future. Also, having debt hang over your head SUCKS. You won't feel comfortable enough to buy a house when you have debt even if you aren't paying for it.

quijotesca1011 · Post by **quijotesca1011** » Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:04 am

lecsa wrote:
That's not my point though. I'm saying Harvard might pull the rug on this for whatever reason in the future. Also, having debt hang over your head SUCKS. You won't feel comfortable enough to buy a house when you have debt even if you aren't paying for it.

Is there evidence of schools having altered this sort of program retroactively? Of course they have the power to do so but my guess would be that if they made vast alterations they would hold you to the program at your time of graduation. Perhaps that's a naïve assumption, and it's actually a question I think I'll ask then directly. Again if someone more knowledgable could offer an opinion I'd be grateful. So far from what I've been reading I got the feeling that there's more concerns about the federal/gov programs being altered, not so much the programs administered by private universities.

And yes, of course the overhanging debt is a huge deal. I think it's a personal decision that requires weighing how important things like home/car ownership are to you, for example, and in what time frame.

Nelson · Post by **Nelson** » Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:46 am

Harvard Law alone, not counting the university, has a $1.7 billion dollar endowment. LIPP is not going anywhere. PSLF on the other hand...

IAFG · Post by **IAFG** » Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:59 am

What is flexibility worth to you?

twenty · Post by **twenty** » Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:59 pm

This seems like a huge mistake. First, H's LRAP is shit. Second, you're (and most people voting yes) way underestimating your income. If you started at 40k a year with a 3% increase each year, by year ten you'd be making about 55k/yr. Does that number seem abnormally low for a tenth year in PI? If not, it really should. ACLU (just an example, not a model of all salaries) plateaus around year 6-7 at 105k/year. Hell, the Legal Aid Society of Southern Ohio starts their staff attorneys off at 45k a year, and that's with some of the lowest cost of living in the nation.

If you stay in the same spot for 10 years (getting full benefit of LIPP), starting at 55k at a 7% salary increase a year, you'll pay a total of 72k+ on your loans. That's pretty much the best case scenario there is. Even if you took a crap gig with some crap local government (say, Boston), you start at 70k going up 5%/year you're looking at paying 132k+ on your loans over ten years.

Go to Cornell for free.

MistakenGenius · Post by **MistakenGenius** » Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:40 pm

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quijotesca1011 · Post by **quijotesca1011** » Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:12 pm

twenty wrote:This seems like a huge mistake. First, H's LRAP is shit. Second, you're (and most people voting yes) way underestimating your income. If you started at 40k a year with a 3% increase each year, by year ten you'd be making about 55k/yr. Does that number seem abnormally low for a tenth year in PI? If not, it really should. ACLU (just an example, not a model of all salaries) plateaus around year 6-7 at 105k/year. Hell, the Legal Aid Society of Southern Ohio starts their staff attorneys off at 45k a year, and that's with some of the lowest cost of living in the nation.

If you stay in the same spot for 10 years (getting full benefit of LIPP), starting at 55k at a 7% salary increase a year, you'll pay a total of 72k+ on your loans. That's pretty much the best case scenario there is. Even if you took a crap gig with some crap local government (say, Boston), you start at 70k going up 5%/year you're looking at paying 132k+ on your loans over ten years.

Go to Cornell for free.

That seems a little harsh… Here's what I'm having trouble understanding about the critiques of LRAPs on TLS - is it an issue that people just don't want to pay any loans at all? Because honestly, I don't mind paying for my education if I CAN, I just want to make sure that with the salary I'm making I can pay for food, rent, and repay my loans. So as your income goes up, yes you pay more, but you still have a lot more leftover after doing so?

I'm just trying to understand the major critique. People keep saying that once you start earning too much, LRAP doesn't help. But because you are making that much, you have enough to live off of and you have enough to pay your loans, no? I'm willing to make sacrifices to do the work that I want to do, but I just want to make sure I will be able to be financially independent and responsible (i.e. pay for food, rent, basic needs, etc.)

It seems like if you were making this example ACLU salary of 105K and paying 15K in loans, you would still be able to do that (since you'd be making around 90K with loans taken out). Of course it's a bummer to lose money on loans, but in the PI context you are paying for the education that equips you to do work that you are passionate about, potentially in some of the most effective and impactful organizations in the country (which HYS can give you access to)…I can't imagine most people go into this field for the money…

Or is there something that I'm misunderstanding? I guess what I'm getting at is, for someone whose priority is not money, but rather working in an area of PI they are passionate about, and being able to make enough money to get by, are these LRAP programs really as bad as some of TLS makes them out to be?

twenty · Post by **twenty** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 3:39 am

When I say "it's shit" it's a bit hyperbole to offset the nincompoops that still insist that H's LRAPs is the best thing ever. I'm saying just doing straight-up PAYE/PSLF without any LRAP whatsoever you will pay less than on H's LRAP. Personally, I think LRAPs are overrated when they'll at the very most save you 6-8k a year if you're at some super-high-cap school like Penn or NYU.

The thing that frustrates me is when people (like several on this thread) try and go "Oh, well, since your income will invariably be below 46k/yr, you'll never have to pay anything because H's LRAP is so amazing, it's like getting a full ride!" Sorry to call you guys out, but you need to do more research. First, there are very few PI jobs one will get from H in the first place that will, at its fifth year, have salary of <46k. So instead of paying 0k, you'll probably end up paying anywhere from 50k (if you go on PAYE/PSLF straight up) to 110k if you decide to fool around with H's LRAP until year ten.

Unless OP can articulate "I want x kind of prestigious PI and would be willing to pay a premium for it" a hypothetical T14 full ride one would get with an H acceptance > H, imho.

Cicero76 · Post by **Cicero76** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:50 am

If you don't care about salary, Taking anything but Harvard is stupid. By the time Harvards LIPP isn't helping you out, you're making more money than you wanted to anyway. And you're going to need the preftige to cop dose save the world jobs

cotiger · Post by **cotiger** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 8:04 am

If you could only really be happy at Harvard, could kind of be happy at CCN, and could not be happy at all at lower T14, then your happiness is directly tied to the prestige of your school. Go to Harvard. You'll regret it the rest of your life if you don't.

TooOld4This · Post by **TooOld4This** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:57 am

zazmo2 wrote: But who wants to be unhappy for three years?

Essentially, is my happiness worth $250,000?!

Your happiness is worth more than $250,000, which is why you should run away from paying that much for law school anywhere.

You don't want to be "unhappy" for three years during law school? Try 1-2.5 DECADES. You only have a vague idea what you think you want to do right now. That QUARTER MILLION debt will be a lead weight governing absolutely every decision you make. Want a different job? First you have to run all the calculations to see what that does to whatever repayment plan you are on. Have an opportunity to get great experience? Whoops, that job doesn't pay enough to service your debt, but is the wrong type of employer/pays a little too much and messes up whatever payment plan you are on. If you actually go PI, you will never pay off the debt yourself and your won't have the ability to save enough money to ever feel like you aren't one bad illness or minor crisis away from being seriously screwed. And if you want to get married, your spouse's income can mess the whole house of cards up.

Friends are buying a house? Unlikely that will be in your future. Kids? Take whatever financial stress you have been feeling and realize that was a piece of cake. Hate your job? Sticking it out when you have no ability to rage quit is a lot harder than when you know you have the option to say "I'm done."

There is no "easy" way out of that much debt. It will absolutely be in the back (or front) of your mind in almost everything you do. And that is the best case scenario.

quijotesca1011 · Post by **quijotesca1011** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 3:35 pm

twenty wrote:When I say "it's shit" it's a bit hyperbole to offset the nincompoops that still insist that H's LRAPs is the best thing ever. I'm saying just doing straight-up PAYE/PSLF without any LRAP whatsoever you will pay less than on H's LRAP. Personally, I think LRAPs are overrated when they'll at the very most save you 6-8k a year if you're at some super-high-cap school like Penn or NYU.

The thing that frustrates me is when people (like several on this thread) try and go "Oh, well, since your income will invariably be below 46k/yr, you'll never have to pay anything because H's LRAP is so amazing, it's like getting a full ride!" Sorry to call you guys out, but you need to do more research. First, there are very few PI jobs one will get from H in the first place that will, at its fifth year, have salary of <46k. So instead of paying 0k, you'll probably end up paying anywhere from 50k (if you go on PAYE/PSLF straight up) to 110k if you decide to fool around with H's LRAP until year ten.

Unless OP can articulate "I want x kind of prestigious PI and would be willing to pay a premium for it" a hypothetical T14 full ride one would get with an H acceptance > H, imho.

Okay, I see your point. Makes a lot of sense. The first time you look at a lot of the LIPP/LRAP websites, at least for me, it does look like you won't be paying anything (I guess I was really pessimistic about post-grad earning potential for PI), but TLS was key to being more aware of what I was getting myself into, and I can imagine it's certainly not for everyone. I just keep trying to get a sense from these boards as to once you get past that point where your earning is high enough that you are paying significant portions of your loans, if it's hurting you in the sense that you are really struggling to get by (i.e. you are making less than if you had a 45K job and all your loans are getting paid).

Of course salary is important, and everyone prefers to live comfortably, I just wouldn't say it's my #1 priority. As for prestige, I guess to me it matters in so far as I was under the impression, as discussed above, that for some levels of PI it matters. I chose a much less prestigious undergrad for a full ride and was extremely happy, so I certainly don't think prestige is necessary for happiness (I think that comment was more meant for OP but not sure) but I did think prestige of grad starts to be more of a factor for job opportunities.

Personally I don't have any full rides (or major scholarships) to T14's to compare with, so for me it basically came down to deciding whether I want to go to Harvard or sit out a cycle. It seems that's not a super typical situation as many people who get into HYS get big money other places.