Harvard vs. Boalt for CA Biglaw W/ No Ties Forum

[goldenflash19]

Harvard: COA $200k
Boalt: COA $120k

Will be financed entirely through loans. Not really debt averse.

I have always dreamed of working in California biglaw. San Francisco is slightly preferable to Los Angeles, but I would be thrilled to be able to work in either city/region. All ties are in the Midwest. I have spent my entire life here, and all of my family is here.

174/4.0

I have taken the LSAT more than 3 times. I really owe being able to be choosing between these schools to TLS. I really cannot thank enough the posters who convinced me to keep trying and am hopeful that I can get some more great advice one more time.

Other Factors:
-I still have not heard from Stanford and am guessing that I'll get waitlisted. I'd be willing to ride the waitlist out as long as possible.
-How important are ties for LA and SF? LA is the second biggest city in the country and has a great climate- would employers be skeptical of a HLS grad who has never lived in CA before?
-(In favor of Harvard) I'm a non-urm male with mundane work experience. It seems probable that a decent percentage of the ~60% of Boalt students to get biglaw/clerkships are URM/have significant work experience/are IP, so the added security of a Harvard degree is attractive.
-(In favor of Berkeley) I have a strong distaste for NYC and really have a hard time ever seeing myself live there, even as a last resort. I'd honestly be tempted to shoot for jobs in my hometown Midwestern secondary over NYC biglaw . I'm not sure if my NYC-aversion mitigates the added security of HLS.
-Other offers: Chicago (90k scholarship) UCLA (full tuition). If any of these some like good options, please let me know.

Thank you all so much!

Edit: 120k COA at Berkeley includes matching scholarship.

[Dr.Zer0]

Have you tried to get Berk to match your 90k at UChicago?

[Tanicius]

Boaltie here. Go to Harvard and you'll have a better shot, even without ties.

[goldenflash19]

Have you tried to get Berk to match your 90k at UChicago?

My bad- I should have explained in the OP. The 120K COA includes my matching scholarship. Thanks for pointing that out!

[n1o2c3a4c5h6e7t]

I vote for lower debt, but that is more of a personal preference. $80,000 is a lot to pay off after interest and no forgiveness, especially given the high cost of norcal living. If you had another source of income that would offset debt (family, wife, investments, etc.), then definitely H.

[bk1]

Bring willing to work in SV would definitely increase your odds. As would gunning for a 1L summer job in CA. If you can convey a genuine desire to do the kind of work that SV does then SV isn't going to care about ties. SF will, though working there during the summer can alleviate that somewhat. LA I am less familiar with though i get the feeling ties are less important than SF. If you do both of these I think you have a decent shot for CA coming from HLS. That said, I think it's still a risky call gunning for CA, especially if you end up significantly below median at HLS.

But with your goals and the cost I'd probably lean Boalt, though it's close.

[Paul Campos]

People who want to work for a big firm but aren't willing to bid on NYC should discount what would otherwise be their odds of getting big law from a particular school by roughly 50% (or even more if as in OP's case they don't have ties to their target market).

[goldenflash19]

Bring willing to work in SV would definitely increase your odds. As would gunning for a 1L summer job in CA. If you can convey a genuine desire to do the kind of work that SV does then SV isn't going to care about ties. SF will, though working there during the summer can alleviate that somewhat. LA I am less familiar with though i get the feeling ties are less important than SF. If you do both of these I think you have a decent shot for CA coming from HLS. That said, I think it's still a risky call gunning for CA, especially if you end up significantly below median at HLS.

But with your goals and the cost I'd probably lean Boalt, though it's close.

I would be more than happy to land SV, especially if it helps my chances. Basically I'd be down for any CA biglaw job and could divide bids up between all 3 markets.

Thanks for all the advice, everyone!

[ColbyBryant]

Do you hate the east coast or just NYC? Would you enjoy living in Cambridge for the next 3 years?

[rpupkin]

Based on what I've seen, most SF offices really value ties (more so than LA). On the other hand, SF offices also seem to really value HLS degrees.

Overall, I agree with Tanicius that HLS gives you a somewhat better shot at Cali law, even without ties. Is that better shot worth an extra $80K of debt? That's a tough call, particularly because you're so adverse to working in NYC big law.

I really think this is a toss-up. (I didn't vote in the poll.)

[goldenflash19]

Do you hate the east coast or just NYC? Would you enjoy living in Cambridge for the next 3 years?

I really only hate NYC. I enjoyed my time at Cambridge during the ASW and could see myself living there/Boston for 3 years, especially if it would help me get a job in CA. I like Boston and DC a decent amount and could possibly live there long term, but I've really always dreamed of starting my family in CA (I've been told I have an irrational love for CA).

[ph14]

HLS places well in CA, even without ties, especially if you're not deadset on SF. Tough decision, though, whether it is worth $80k more when that pushes you to $200k+ in loans.

[banjo]

66% OCI success rate at Boalt compared to probably 100% at HLS. I think the added security is worth it.

[ph14]

66% OCI success rate at Boalt compared to probably 100% at HLS. I think the added security is worth it.

Not 100% for OP's target markets, though.

[banjo]

66% OCI success rate at Boalt compared to probably 100% at HLS. I think the added security is worth it.

Not 100% for OP's target markets, though.

That's true. Not sure how much that would really close that gap though.

[rpupkin]

66% OCI success rate at Boalt compared to probably 100% at HLS. I think the added security is worth it.

100%? I'd guess the HLS figure is more like 85-90%. But whatever HLS's success rate is, it would be significantly lower if you took away the NYC big law market, which the OP has made clear he or she is not interested in.

[lecsa]

66% OCI success rate at Boalt compared to probably 100% at HLS. I think the added security is worth it.

100%? I'd guess the HLS figure is more like 85-90%. But whatever HLS's success rate is, it would be significantly lower if you took away the NYC big law market, which the OP has made clear he or she is not interested in.

Maybe, but Harvard is Harvard.

I don't know if I'd pay that much for Harvard, but Harvard >>> Boalt for California. A lot of firms will go much further down in the classes of YHS for hiring.

[manu6926]

...

[lecsa]

Berkeley is cheaper and your goal is Cali biglaw. So I'd save money and choose Berkeley here.

Says the guy trying to get off the Harvard waitlist

[rpupkin]

Berkeley is cheaper and your goal is Cali biglaw. So I'd save money and choose Berkeley here.

Says the guy trying to get off the Harvard waitlist

Actually, I do like the idea of some on the HLS waitlist going to every "Harvard vs. x" thread and recommending the non-HLS option. (Not that I think manu6926 is doing that here.)

[lecsa]

Berkeley is cheaper and your goal is Cali biglaw. So I'd save money and choose Berkeley here.

Says the guy trying to get off the Harvard waitlist

You have a strange agenda ITT. Maybe manu6926 is trying to get off the HLS waitlist because he isn't dead set on California and/or doesn't have a scholarship from Boalt.

No one is saying that Boalt is a better law school than HLS. But when OP has got a $90K scholarship to Boalt and has a preference for Northern California, it's a close call and reasonable people will come down on either side. Your "Harvard is Harvard" trope is the stupidest thing anyone has written ITT.

Odds are he won't get California biglaw out of Berkeley (given the employment stats). Odds are probably better out of Harvard. But yes 200k is a lot of loans. Not sure 90k is enough to sway me though.

[rpupkin]

Berkeley is cheaper and your goal is Cali biglaw. So I'd save money and choose Berkeley here.

Says the guy trying to get off the Harvard waitlist

You have a strange agenda ITT. Maybe manu6926 is trying to get off the HLS waitlist because he isn't dead set on California and/or doesn't have a scholarship from Boalt.

No one is saying that Boalt is a better law school than HLS. But when OP has got a $90K scholarship to Boalt and has a preference for Northern California, it's a close call and reasonable people will come down on either side. Your "Harvard is Harvard" trope is the stupidest thing anyone has written ITT.

Odds are he won't get California biglaw out of Berkeley (given the employment stats). Odds are probably much better out of Harvard. But yes 200k is a lot of loans. Not sure 90k is enough to sway me though.

Sorry, lesca. You saw my post before I thought better of it and edited it. (You were really just making a joke about self-interested posters.) In any event, I agree that it's a close call for the OP.

[jbagelboy]

66% OCI success rate at Boalt compared to probably 100% at HLS. I think the added security is worth it.

100%? I'd guess the HLS figure is more like 85-90%. But whatever HLS's success rate is, it would be significantly lower if you took away the NYC big law market, which the OP has made clear he or she is not interested in.

H in the 85%-90% eip offer range makes sense. It's what their employment (and underemployment) numbers suggest. Dickwads and aspies could strike out everywhere, as might bottom k-jds with LPs and people with terrible bidding strategy. Cautious NYC bid choices with decent social skills and something on the resume probably close to 100%.

Anyway, I think unless OP is norcal-or-bust, which they facially aren't, Harvard is a fine choice. Berkeley and H may be equal in SF. Los Angeles and Orange County firms on the other hand like the big east coast names and will dip lower in the class/press less on ties. Anecdotally, the Harvard kids summering in my socal office don't* have CA ties from what I can tell.

Harvard also gives maximum flexibility if you change your mind.

[ColbyBryant]

I'm going to change my vote to Harvard. If you don't mind living in Cambridge for a few years it makes the most sense for you. Since you have never lived in California and others describe your love for California as irrational, it would be nice to have the added security of an HLS degree. You may meet somebody and want to settle down closer to your family/ties.

I am a 0L, but a much older applicant. Dozens of friends and acquaintances have gone through law school and med school. Professional school is incredibly stressful, and your goals will change throughout the 3 years. This is especially true of geographic goals. HLS certainly has no DISadvantage vs. Boalt in any California big law market, and has an obvious advantage in all non-California markets (big law and otherwise). If you somehow know with 100% certainty that you WILL settle down in California, then save the 80k+ interest and go to Boalt. Otherwise, HLS could be worth the extra investment.

Of course, if Stanford comes through, you can have it all!