Howard v. Hofstra Forum

[Meowaka]

Hello All,

I am new here. I may as well jump right in. Looking at numbers is starting to get to me, and I can't spend all my time obsessively checking emails, so discussion with others who are participating in this process will be, I think, comforting.

As of today, I have been offered admission at three schools. Charlotte (I'm withdrawing), Hofstra, and Howard.

My question pertains to Hofstra and Howard.

I believe the total cost of Howard, for year one, including merit scholarship awards, will be about: $33,550. For three years if I keep scholarship - $100,650.
Estimated cost of Hofstra for three years: $120,000 including merit scholarship awards, if kept.

I will be paying, mostly, with loans. I was fortunate enough to get through my undergraduate and post graduate degrees without taking out a loan, so I am new to this, but I believe that the amount of loans I would need will justify themselves with the right scholastic opportunity. (I don't believe that either of these schools are it. It's not over yet!) But I am concerned that these may be the only schools I am able to get into. (Pessimism.)

I desperately want to be in D.C. because my career goals are focused in international law, maybe international business law. I am in this to make important connections, work with the best study abroad programs available, and pursue leadership in the world of international law. I have a very good friend who lives in D.C., who would be able to rent a room to my husband and I, making the change from CO to D.C. very comfortable for us both monetarily. I also considered where I would like to be if I have the chance to transfer schools. D.C. is right at the top of this list.

The tricky stuff. I graduated with my BA that began at U of Arizona, and I finished at Victoria University of Wellington in New Zealand. To my calculations, the undergraduate GPA should be something like 3.7, but each school gets to decide what it is for themselves. Not to mention, the CAS will not let me know what the average is according to them, so I have no idea how they calculated it. I did a post graduate degree in New Zealand as well, which is called an Honours. (Pre Masters, basically) in philosophy. My LSAT was 155. I have taken it once.

[BigZuck]

What do you mean by "international law?" What specific jobs are we talking about?

I wouldn't go to either school without a full ride and I wouldn't attend either if I wanted corporate law (which is pretty much just large firm work). Both schools have pretty poor job placement.

[TheSpanishMain]

You need to take the LSAT again.

Also, if you finished your undergrad in New Zealand, did they even give you a US GPA? If not, the need to retake the LSAT is even more urgent.

[sublime]

..

[Satre001]

If you're fixed on going to law school and those are your only two options, Howard sounds like the 'best'. The unemployment for Howard for 2013 was about 10%, compared to Hofstra's 16%* (this is their 2012 stats). Added to that, Howard seems to do better in Biglaw. That said, both are terrible choices. If you want to do diplomacy, maybe consider getting an MA in INL Relations and then foreign service.

[Meowaka]

What do you mean by "international law?" What specific jobs are we talking about?

I wouldn't go to either school without a full ride and I wouldn't attend either if I wanted corporate law (which is pretty much just large firm work). Both schools have pretty poor job placement.

WELL, I haven't figured that part out completely. I would (someday) like to be in a position that focuses on finding common ground in different laws, diplomacy-ish. In the meantime, I just need to find out more about the subject itself, and what sorts of jobs are offered afterwards. There are so many avenues. I like the idea of international mergers and aquisitions, though that isn't exactly always "fair," it's important work in interacting with different cultures to come to an agreement, and I like that. It's a start, but I just need to learn more first.

I desperately want AUWCL so I can participate in their Dual Degree programme with France... but I've been waitlisted. (I can't really blame them based on LSAT score...) I am trying to continue to show interest, and also not sound desperate. I'm learning French right now so I would be able to practice in both areas. I don't know much about "getting there" but I do know I want to be someone who can practice both in the U.S. and overseas.

[rad lulz]

m

[californiauser]

What do you mean by "international law?" What specific jobs are we talking about?

I wouldn't go to either school without a full ride and I wouldn't attend either if I wanted corporate law (which is pretty much just large firm work). Both schools have pretty poor job placement.

WELL, I haven't figured that part out completely. I would (someday) like to be in a position that focuses on finding common ground in different laws, diplomacy-ish. In the meantime, I just need to find out more about the subject itself, and what sorts of jobs are offered afterwards. There are so many avenues. I like the idea of international mergers and aquisitions, though that isn't exactly always "fair," it's important work in interacting with different cultures to come to an agreement, and I like that. It's a start, but I just need to learn more first.

I desperately want AUWCL so I can participate in their Dual Degree programme with France... but I've been waitlisted. (I can't really blame them based on LSAT score...) I am trying to continue to show interest, and also not sound desperate. I'm learning French right now so I would be able to practice in both areas. I don't know much about "getting there" but I do know I want to be someone who can practice both in the U.S. and overseas.

So you want big law, but you're looking at schools where 45k doing personal injury would be a great outcome for the majority of these schools' graduates. Retake for t14 if you want big law.

[rad lulz]

Also people who want to hire us lawyers hire us lawyers and when they want French lawyers they get French lawyers

They don't hire jack of all trades master of none randos who have licenses in 2 countries

[Meowaka]

You need to take the LSAT again.

Also, if you finished your undergrad in New Zealand, did they even give you a US GPA? If not, the need to retake the LSAT is even more urgent.

I am not great at standardized testing. I think this really is my one shot... and try to transfer out later.

They did not give me a U.S. GPA.

[Meowaka]

1. They cost too much.

2. Are you black? There is an argument to be made that Howard's large firm hiring percentage will not really be applicable to you if you are not. Although if you were, I would expect at list a little bit of a better cycle, but that could be the intl gpa thing too.


You definitely should retake though, especially if you really want to try to pursue international law.

I'm not black. It's fair enough.

I'm getting the feeling that the consensus is to take the LSAT again.

[Meowaka]

Also people who want to hire us lawyers hire us lawyers and when they want French lawyers they get French lawyers

They don't hire jack of all trades master of none randos who have licenses in 2 countries

Would you care to elaborate a little? I really am new to this whole thing, and maybe I was too hopeful and not realistic. To get what I really want, I would need at T14 school, granted. But is there no redeeming quality in having two degrees of law and the ability to study in more than one country afterwards?

Is there anything to be gained by starting low and transferring out later?

[timbs4339]

What do you mean by "international law?" What specific jobs are we talking about?

I wouldn't go to either school without a full ride and I wouldn't attend either if I wanted corporate law (which is pretty much just large firm work). Both schools have pretty poor job placement.

WELL, I haven't figured that part out completely. I would (someday) like to be in a position that focuses on finding common ground in different laws, diplomacy-ish. In the meantime, I just need to find out more about the subject itself, and what sorts of jobs are offered afterwards. There are so many avenues. I like the idea of international mergers and aquisitions, though that isn't exactly always "fair," it's important work in interacting with different cultures to come to an agreement, and I like that. It's a start, but I just need to learn more first.

I desperately want AUWCL so I can participate in their Dual Degree programme with France... but I've been waitlisted. (I can't really blame them based on LSAT score...) I am trying to continue to show interest, and also not sound desperate. I'm learning French right now so I would be able to practice in both areas. I don't know much about "getting there" but I do know I want to be someone who can practice both in the U.S. and overseas.

Yes, you need to do a lot more research before committing to a six-figure investment in this career path. I can tell you right now that it sounds like you want something that can only be achieved at a biglaw firm, and biglaw firms do not care how many international law classes you take (since they hire after your 1L year anyway) and what degree programs your school offers. They care about the rank of your school and your grades.

EDIT: In the US, Howard is what's known as a HBCU, a college that is historically black. Employers go to Howard to find diverse applicants.

Please do not use the "bad test-taker" excuse. The LSAT is totally learnable with a sustained, smart prep regimen.

[thebobs1987]

Also people who want to hire us lawyers hire us lawyers and when they want French lawyers they get French lawyers

They don't hire jack of all trades master of none randos who have licenses in 2 countries

Would you care to elaborate a little? I really am new to this whole thing, and maybe I was too hopeful and not realistic. To get what I really want, I would need at T14 school, granted. But is there no redeeming quality in having two degrees of law and the ability to study in more than one country afterwards?

Is there anything to be gained by starting low and transferring out later?

Nothing. Law school grades are based 100% on exams. And you would need to be in the top 10% at least to transfer. Study for the LSAT and retake. Otherwise you will be wasting a lot of time and money

[Meowaka]

Yes, you need to do a lot more research before committing to a six-figure investment in this career path. I can tell you right now that it sounds like you want something that can only be achieved at a biglaw firm, and biglaw firms do not care how many international law classes you take (since they hire after your 1L year anyway) and what degree programs your school offers. They care about the rank of your school and your grades.

EDIT: In the US, Howard is what's known as a HBCU, a college that is historically black. Employers go to Howard to find diverse applicants.

Please do not use the "bad test-taker" excuse. The LSAT is totally learnable with a sustained, smart prep regimen.

I worked with Kaplan for months to take the LSAT to the best of my ability. I got up early for work and studied, on lunch breaks, after work, most weekends. For five months. While on practices I was doing alright, I didn't make it happen on test day. If I take it again, does that mean I'm basically out of this current cycle?

I know that Howard is a black school, but when I was applying I was mostly looking at location, and a chance to have a leg up in case I wasn't able to get the score I wanted at the February exam.

[d cooper]

You need to take the LSAT again.

Also, if you finished your undergrad in New Zealand, did they even give you a US GPA? If not, the need to retake the LSAT is even more urgent.

I am not great at standardized testing. I think this really is my one shot... and try to transfer out later.

They did not give me a U.S. GPA.

You absolutely have to retake or else drastically manage/lower your expectations for your career.

[Meowaka]

Also people who want to hire us lawyers hire us lawyers and when they want French lawyers they get French lawyers

They don't hire jack of all trades master of none randos who have licenses in 2 countries

Would you care to elaborate a little? I really am new to this whole thing, and maybe I was too hopeful and not realistic. To get what I really want, I would need at T14 school, granted. But is there no redeeming quality in having two degrees of law and the ability to study in more than one country afterwards?

Is there anything to be gained by starting low and transferring out later?

Nothing. Law school grades are based 100% on exams. And you would need to be in the top 10% at least to transfer. Study for the LSAT and retake. Otherwise you will be wasting a lot of time and money

Ok. I meant that "starting low" was ranking of school, not my grades. I know that I can make stellar grades. I just don't have the LSAT score where it needs to be. I don't know how to juggle that kind of intense study with work and my life, apparently.

So what the lot of you are mainly saying is that it's not really even worth it to consider these schools if I want the dream. Best chance of having that, it so take the LSAT in June?

[thebobs1987]

Also people who want to hire us lawyers hire us lawyers and when they want French lawyers they get French lawyers

They don't hire jack of all trades master of none randos who have licenses in 2 countries

Would you care to elaborate a little? I really am new to this whole thing, and maybe I was too hopeful and not realistic. To get what I really want, I would need at T14 school, granted. But is there no redeeming quality in having two degrees of law and the ability to study in more than one country afterwards?

Is there anything to be gained by starting low and transferring out later?

Nothing. Law school grades are based 100% on exams. And you would need to be in the top 10% at least to transfer. Study for the LSAT and retake. Otherwise you will be wasting a lot of time and money

Ok. I meant that "starting low" was ranking of school, not my grades. I know that I can make stellar grades. I just don't have the LSAT score where it needs to be. I don't know how to juggle that kind of intense study with work and my life, apparently.

So what the lot of you are mainly saying is that it's not really even worth it to consider these schools if I want the dream. Best chance of having that, it so take the LSAT in June?

I knew what you meant. But if you can't master the LSAT what makes you think you can master law school exams. Law school exams are much more intense and unpredictable than the LSAT. Yes, retake

[Meowaka]

You need to take the LSAT again.

Also, if you finished your undergrad in New Zealand, did they even give you a US GPA? If not, the need to retake the LSAT is even more urgent.

I am not great at standardized testing. I think this really is my one shot... and try to transfer out later.

They did not give me a U.S. GPA.

You absolutely have to retake or else drastically manage/lower your expectations for your career.

Understood.

So it's T14 from the get-go or nothing if I want to make anything out of myself once I'm finished with law school. Not even transferring from a lower ranking school with excellent grades and rank would save me.

I am inclined to follow your advice, but it does seem abupt, and because I clearly don't understand this whole thing as clearly as you all are able to see it, could I ask some of you to elaborate on a few of the points that you've made? I clearly need ot rethink some things, and I need to know where to start.

[thebobs1987]

You need to take the LSAT again.

Also, if you finished your undergrad in New Zealand, did they even give you a US GPA? If not, the need to retake the LSAT is even more urgent.

I am not great at standardized testing. I think this really is my one shot... and try to transfer out later.

They did not give me a U.S. GPA.

You absolutely have to retake or else drastically manage/lower your expectations for your career.

Understood.

So it's T14 from the get-go or nothing if I want to make anything out of myself once I'm finished with law school. Not even transferring from a lower ranking school with excellent grades and rank would save me.

I am inclined to follow your advice, but it does seem abupt, and because I clearly don't understand this whole thing as clearly as you all are able to see it, could I ask some of you to elaborate on a few of the points that you've made? I clearly need ot rethink some things, and I need to know where to start.

You can't count on transferring. For law school exams, spotting one issue can be the difference between an A and a B. And I am not a t14 or bust person, but given what you say you want to do, you do need to go to a t14 to have a shot at doing it. It would be reckless to go somewhere else and take on a lot of debt with the hopes of transferring. Retake is your only option

[Meowaka]

I knew what you meant. But if you can't master the LSAT what makes you think you can master law school exams. Law school exams are much more intense and unpredictable than the LSAT. Yes, retake

I worked in analytic philosophy, and so I know how to analyze problems and test when I have the work and preparation, and time in front of me. I felt I didn't have that with this LSAT. (My Dad had a stroke last year, and so I had been waging war trying to make my life work while also making sure he was ok. It sucked.)

I get the point, retake.

[Meowaka]

You can't count on transferring. For law school exams, spotting one issue can be the difference between an A and a B. And I am not a t14 or bust person, but given what you say you want to do, you do need to go to a t14 to have a shot at doing it. It would be reckless to go somewhere else and take on a lot of debt with the hopes of transferring. Retake is your only option

I understand. Thank you.

[rad lulz]

,

[Balthy]

Kaplan is a terrible prep company. This site is a gold mine of LSAT info, so read as many threads as you can and make a new plan. With a lot of hard work, I think you'll surprise yourself with how high you can score.

Gl!

[Meowaka]

Ok, so here's what I thought I knew by listening to other attorneys that I know (work with):

It's best to take the LSAT only once, because the chances of increasing a score aren't fantastic.

It doesn't matter what law school you go to, as long as you make the right connections from the get-go.

It pays to be in the area you want to be in even if you don't get into your school of choice, because the option of transferring is there. But most importantly, the connections you make in the area are the most viable.

Getting into a T1 is fantastic, but if that won't work out, you'll find a way to get where you need to go.

I'm really considering taking the LSAT again, because of the very strong opinion on this forum. It may mean that I have to halt all plans and figure out some new ones. This will be quite a shock to my husband, and the few people I've told about law school, if I decide to go this route.

Would someone be kind enough to tell me why American is a terrible idea? I know they aren't ranked highly in most areas, but in international law they seem to be fantastic, top 10. I would like to know more about your opinions on the school.

If I decide not to retake, and I have to change my ideals/job, what kind of career am I going to be looking at concerning anything having to do with international law jobs?