Penn State vs UIUC Forum

[bugsy33]

Alright so I'm down to two schools and I want the TLS opinion. I'm having a very tough time picking between Illinois and Penn State.

Goals: Criminal Law or Government LEO/DoD (FBI, BATFE, DOJ, ect.)
Location: Midwest or Southeast- I would like to have the option of returning to Michigan

Penn State- 75% discount/ 13k/yr tuition.
Pros:
Best facilities in the country (imho), the law school is brand new, gorgeous, and would be a great place to study for three years. The rest of the campus is also far nicer than UIUC (and for that matter MSU and UofM). They're also a school on the rise. It's a top ten public school and just behind UofM in the rankings. This, combined with their major investment into the law school, leads me to believe that PSU will have a top-40 law school in the next 10 years. PSU probably has better access to D.C. and the major federal markets. Also football is a hell of a lot better than UIUC. I have been super impressed with everything PSU has done recruitment wise. If I could get an extra couple grand in scholarship money, it would make a big difference in my decision. I'd currently save only about 20k by going to PSU.

Cons: Employment, Employment, Employment. I have a coinflip's chance of getting ANY legal job if current numbers stay the same. The class size has reduced drastically over the past 3 years (almost 50%), but I wonder how big of an impact that will have on gaining employment. They've also hired a former legal headhunter as their career services director. Again, unsure if it's going to have a major impact on employment stats. This is obviously a major concern. Tuition also may rise over my three years which could make it less of a value compared to UIUC.

UIUC-60%/ 20k/yr tuition.
Pros: Employment. UIUC, despite the rankings drop, has maintained a decent to good employment profile (79% found full time legal jobs last year inc. school funded). Their fed+biglaw number is above 30%. It also has strong ties to the Chicago legal market. I feel like the school is still highly regarded and has a large legal alumni base. Also, the people in the FB group and on TLS seem pretty cool.

Cons: I lived in Chicago for a while and it was a love/hate relationship. I loved the city life, but between their generous use of toll roads, corrupt politicians, and draconian gun laws, it's not an ideal place to be. The UIUC campus is okay, but I've yet to visit their law building. Judging by the pictures it's a bit drab. I know aesthetics shouldn't matter, but I do have to spend a lot of time there for three years. There is also the possibility that employers might slow down on hiring from UIUC because of the quality of the incoming students (idiots like me).

Scholarships are guaranteed at both schools and tuition is guaranteed not to rise at UIUC.

Wildcards:
I am negotiating scholarships with UTK, they have good employment stats and if they match the $30k award from Penn State then they will be the cheapest option. Scholarships to UTK are also guaranteed.

Still waiting on decisions from tOSU, Wisconsin, and SMU. Might be able to negotiate with SMU which could be a good option.

I'm not retaking again. Thanks

[thebobs1987]

Alright so I'm down to two schools and I want the TLS opinion. I'm having a very tough time picking between Illinois and Penn State.

Goals: Criminal Law or Government LEO/DoD (FBI, BATFE, DOJ, ect.)
Location: Midwest or Southeast- I would like to have the option of returning to Michigan

Penn State- 75% discount/ 13k/yr tuition.
Pros:
Best facilities in the country (imho), the law school is brand new, gorgeous, and would be a great place to study for three years. The rest of the campus is also far nicer than UIUC (and for that matter MSU and UofM). They're also a school on the rise. It's a top ten public school and just behind UofM in the rankings. This, combined with their major investment into the law school, leads me to believe that PSU will have a top-40 law school in the next 10 years. PSU probably has better access to D.C. and the major federal markets. Also football is a hell of a lot better than UIUC. I have been super impressed with everything PSU has done recruitment wise. If I could get an extra couple grand in scholarship money, it would make a big difference in my decision. I'd currently save only about 20k by going to PSU.

Cons: Employment, Employment, Employment. I have a coinflip's chance of getting ANY legal job if current numbers stay the same. The class size has reduced drastically over the past 3 years (almost 50%), but I wonder how big of an impact that will have on gaining employment. They've also hired a former legal headhunter as their career services director. Again, unsure if it's going to have a major impact on employment stats. This is obviously a major concern. Tuition also may rise over my three years which could make it less of a value compared to UIUC.

UIUC-60%/ 20k/yr tuition.
Pros: Employment. UIUC, despite the rankings drop, has maintained a decent to good employment profile (79% found full time legal jobs last year inc. school funded). Their fed+biglaw number is above 30%. It also has strong ties to the Chicago legal market. I feel like the school is still highly regarded and has a large legal alumni base. Also, the people in the FB group and on TLS seem pretty cool.

Cons: I lived in Chicago for a while and it was a love/hate relationship. I loved the city life, but between their generous use of toll roads, corrupt politicians, and draconian gun laws, it's not an ideal place to be. The UIUC campus is okay, but I've yet to visit their law building. Judging by the pictures it's a bit drab. I know aesthetics shouldn't matter, but I do have to spend a lot of time there for three years. There is also the possibility that employers might slow down on hiring from UIUC because of the quality of the incoming students (idiots like me).

Scholarships are guaranteed at both schools and tuition is guaranteed not to rise at UIUC.

Wildcards:
I am negotiating scholarships with UTK, they have good employment stats and if they match the $30k award from Penn State then they will be the cheapest option. Scholarships to UTK are also guaranteed.

Still waiting on decisions from tOSU, Wisconsin, and SMU. Might be able to negotiate with SMU which could be a good option.

I'm not retaking again. Thanks

I am a UIUC student. The building is fine. Definitely old, but not terrible. The library has been renovated and is really nice. If you want to be in the midwest it definitely is the better choice compared to Penn State. Neither will get you to the Southeast. I actually think your choices should be UTK or UIUC since you want southeast or midwest. Decide which region you want more and then go to the school that makes the most sense for that region. With that said, hard to tell COA. I love UIUC, but you shouldn't go more than 80k in debt for UIUC or any of the schools you are considering so keep negotiating if you aren't going to retake

[bugsy33]

My region is the Midwest. I guess I'd just be open to the southeast too if the opportunity presented itself. If you don't mind me asking, what do you like specifically about UIUC? I hear you on the debt thing, but I think 20k/yr is pretty good for the chance to attend UIUC given the employment stats. 60k tuition plus probably 50k in living expenses puts me just over 100k. I think that's a pretty manageable.

[thebobs1987]

My region is the Midwest. I guess I'd just be open to the southeast too if the opportunity presented itself. If you don't mind me asking, what do you like specifically about UIUC? I hear you on the debt thing, but I think 20k/yr is pretty good for the chance to attend UIUC given the employment stats. 60k tuition plus probably 50k in living expenses puts me just over 100k. I think that's a pretty manageable.

If you want midwest then I would say UIUC. But 100k is a good amount especially if you want to be a DA. A State's Attorney starting out in Cook County makes 60k a year. And I assume it is less than that in most other areas. UIUC has a pretty good LRAP that would cover a good chunk of loans, but who knows what that will look like by the time you graduate so always good to keep debt as low as possible. I can just PM you specific stuff. There's also a UIUC thread in the ask a law student forum

[bugsy33]

Does LRAP tend to cover government jobs or just PI jobs?

[n1o2c3a4c5h6e7t]

I think PSU is a bit strange given your location preferences. It doesn't have much cachet outside of PA (or even in PA...). Prestigious federal work will be a stretch from any school, but if you really want criminal, it may be better to go to school in a major city so that you can do relevant internships throughout the year. I don't think either school is a good choice.

LRAP covers govt jobs, of course.

[thebobs1987]

Does LRAP tend to cover government jobs or just PI jobs?

Government jobs are PI. LRAP covers them. Go to the different schools sites that you are considering and research what each school does for LRAP. Some schools don't have them and others have pretty lousy ones

[Winston1984]

Most (maybe all) of your pros for Penn State are pretty silly. Your concern should be employment. You are considering law schools for better football teams? Also, Penn State grads work in PA. I also think most of those government agencies you mentioned are going to be almost impossible to land.

[donewithannarbor]

UI is the best option-- if you want it.

PSU offer looks good on paper, but I feel as others do that PSU, though climbing, is not a degree that you can carry anywhere and elicit a quality array of job offers. If your focus was PA government for your start, then it would be good. If you might be interested in starting in Philly or Pittsburgh and then moving back to Michigan after 3-5 years, then okay. Where would you live/attend school if PSU? College Park? Or Harrisburg? Forgive my ignorance. At any rate, it should be noted that neither of these are big cities with tons of employment opportunities for you to get a shoe in the door through interning for judge, government office, etc. That's why I never really 'got' PSU when I briefly considered it. All the action is hours away in Philly or Pittsburgh. I went to Rutgers myself, and it had the advantage of tons of firms, courts, and government offices in and around the school in downtown Newark. This sort of practicality is important, all the more so for the employment route that you are considering. UI is a stronger name and, though not in the biggest city either, does have a strong pipeline to Chicago as you mention, and may help you get into a clerkship or prosecutor role with greater ease than PSU (though I am not expert on one's likely prospects). Sounds like you'd have to be okay with Illinois/Chi for at least a few years, however. UI's degree is a bit more portable than PSU's, IMO.

If you pass on UI, I actually think you should try to get a full ride at Wayne State. I mention it because it's located in a job center in which it has a solid, longstanding reputation and because you say you're interested in the region and ultimately living in Michigan (rendering moot the fact that the degree, like PSU's, is not very portable). Wayne for free sounds like the fairly direct, lowest-risk route for your goals, and I'd rate it above PSU. Probably not the advice you expected, but I will at least plant the thought.

Considering your goals, you need to make the choice that opens the most doors and generates the least debt (you won't make more than 70k out of school if you commit to government, and that number is only for federal employment). PSU is keeping your debt low, but are you confident that it opens the most doors? I am not. UI also keeps your debt low, but you need to get tabs on what doors it might open, whether you like those doors, and whether the degree is portable enough for you. Wisc. and SMU are great, and you should probably analyze them the same way I suggest analyzing UI. Ultimately, you are sort of all over the map with an array of solid regional schools. Just follow the above guidance and be prepared to most probably commit to the region and possibly even locality you choose for at least a few years (that was my plan when I transplanted for law school)-- again, particularly in light of your desired path (sounds to me like a district court clerkship may be a good immediate post-grad or 1-3 year out goal for you).

[bugsy33]

Thanks, that was a really good piece of advice. I considered Wayne State, and while it would be very cheap to attend there, I feel like it would close a lot of doors down the road. After today's LST score release I'm pretty sure that I'll end up at UIUC. Even if it's more expensive it seems like it will be worth it in the long run. I think attending UIUC @ 20k/year is a fair market rate for that level of education.