ND vs. WUSTL Forum

[NDVWUSTL]

Alright, I know that this has been beaten to death, but it's been a little while since the last time this popped up and I thought it would be time for another go around.

ND and WUSTL
COA: ND - 120K (30k/yr scholarship) WUSTL - 102K (35k/yr scholarship)
Financing: Loans
Significant ties to Chicago. Secondary ties to Indiana and St. Louis. Strong ties throughout upper midwest as well.
Retake? Out of retakes for two years and I am comfortable with either of those total debts at graduation.
Goals: Biglaw/Midlaw/Small law on IBR. Ideally I would like Chicago, but it won't hurt much if I don't. I really like the law and I want to go to law school to become a lawyer, I've spent enough time reading the Vale to know what potentially awaits me. I have spoken with associates across multiple big firms and am aware of the grind of biglaw.

The real question is which one will give me the best shot at getting to Chicago (Are they really a wash? I find that hard to believe. Did not apply and do not want to go to UIUC, as long term I think both of these schools offer better options - Also, not in at Northwestern or UChi) and would not having substantial ties to St. Louis be a significant hindrance to job prospects? Also, I am a Catholic, and I have experience working for the republican party.

Thank you in advance.

[thebobs1987]

Alright, I know that this has been beaten to death, but it's been a little while since the last time this popped up and I thought it would be time for another go around.

ND and WUSTL
COA: ND - 120K WUSTL - 102K
Financing: Loans
Significant ties to Chicago. Secondary ties to Indiana and St. Louis. Strong ties throughout upper midwest as well.
Good luck! Follow your dreams!? Out of retakes for two years and I am comfortable with either of those total debts at graduation.
Goals: Biglaw/Midlaw/Small law on IBR. Ideally I would like Chicago, but it won't hurt much if I don't. I really like the law and I want to go to law school to become a lawyer, I've spent enough time reading the Vale to know what potentially awaits me. I have spoken with associates across multiple big firms and am aware of the grind of biglaw.

The real question is which one will give me the best shot at getting to Chicago (Are they really a wash? I find that hard to believe. Did not apply and do not want to go to UIUC, as long term I think both of these schools offer better options - Also, not in at Northwestern or UChi) and would not having substantial ties to St. Louis be a significant hindrance to job prospects? Also, I am a Catholic, and I have experience working for the republican party which I have heard is a boon to clerkship prospects for ND.

Thank you in advance. Also, Friday plus lots of coffee equals jumbled thoughts, my bad.

My friends at WUSTL have said that St. Louis firms don't trust WUSTL people from out of state and often take SLU grads instead because they know they'll stay. ND is probably your best bet with your backgroud. I know you said you're comfortable with that debt, but I would still try and lower it.

[BigZuck]

Both are too expensive but gun to my head I guess WUSTL? Sounds like from WUSTL bros that lack of St Louis ties will hurt. Whether that will be mitigated or exacerbated by ties to other Midwestern cities, I'm not sure. I wouldn't expect big law from either unless you crush it gradewise, which is unlikely.

[NDVWUSTL]

Could I get some input from a ND or WUSTL student or alum on the size of debt they thought was reasonable? I know I'm not the only one facing this decision.

[McAvoy]

Could I get some input from a ND or WUSTL student or alum on the size of debt they thought was reasonable? I know I'm not the only one facing this decision.

You don't need them. Use LST and their employment reports.

The rule of thumb is to plan on a median outcome and plan to graduate only with the amount of debt equal to that median outcome's salary.

In other words, it's pretty tough to satisfy the rule with these costs. What are your other options?

[McAvoy]

Also, I am a Catholic, and I have experience working for the republican party

Also, don't run around telling people these things when you're looking for jobs. Not gonna help, but could hurt.

Bummer that you'd probably face eternal punishment for eating a steak today. I'll have one for you!

[illiniguy1551]

Just apply to UIUC and get mad cash, they are handing out a ton this year. Lower debt, similar job placement, and overall better job prospects for Chicago. I don't really think longterm ND and WashU are that much better, except maybe in other markets that you don't even seem interested in/statistically likely to not have the grades to access. You're only spending a little over half of each year for the next three years at law school, so if its the location that bothers you, it shouldn't be the deciding factor. $100,000+ is a lot of debt, save most of that by applying to UIUC, and then go buy a house or take like 10 badass vacations.

Made this exact same choice last year and no regrets, debt is REAL.

[TheSpanishMain]

Also, I am a Catholic, and I have experience working for the republican party

Also, don't run around telling people these things when you're looking for jobs. Not gonna help, but could hurt.

Bummer that you'd probably face eternal punishment for eating a steak today. I'll have one for you!

Thanks for looking out for us Papists mang.

[NDVWUSTL]

Could I get some input from a ND or WUSTL student or alum on the size of debt they thought was reasonable? I know I'm not the only one facing this decision.

You don't need them. Use LST and their employment reports.

The rule of thumb is to plan on a median outcome and plan to graduate only with the amount of debt equal to that median outcome's salary.

In other words, it's pretty tough to satisfy the rule with these costs. What are your other options?

I've done the research pretty extensively here, so I do know that it is difficult to satisfy that rule. But essentially, I'm not terribly off with these numbers. I'm sitting at 34%ish biglaw/fed clerkships for both schools, putting 34% at a starting of 160k. Assuming the other 66% make between 55-80k, 67k for our purposes, then the average starting salary would come out to 98k. I know that I am leaving out unemployment and school funded jobs and the like, but even accounting for those we are mostly only adjusting down to 90k for an average.

The standard response here would be, 90-100k jobs don't exist because midlaw is mythical. This is true. However, if we follow that rule of thumb directly you can only do one of two different options. A T14 at 160k or less, or any other school at 70kish or less.

[NDVWUSTL]

Also, I am a Catholic, and I have experience working for the republican party

Also, don't run around telling people these things when you're looking for jobs. Not gonna help, but could hurt.

Bummer that you'd probably face eternal punishment for eating a steak today. I'll have one for you!

And yeah, I don't plan to. Most of the legal world is liberal and being Catholic is nearly only a detriment. But again, this same rule does not apply for clerkship placement. And yeah, as much as I love fish fry it does get old pretty quick, that catholic guilt is real.

[BigZuck]

Could I get some input from a ND or WUSTL student or alum on the size of debt they thought was reasonable? I know I'm not the only one facing this decision.

You don't need them. Use LST and their employment reports.

The rule of thumb is to plan on a median outcome and plan to graduate only with the amount of debt equal to that median outcome's salary.

In other words, it's pretty tough to satisfy the rule with these costs. What are your other options?

I've done the research pretty extensively here, so I do know that it is difficult to satisfy that rule. But essentially, I'm not terribly off with these numbers. I'm sitting at 34%ish biglaw/fed clerkships for both schools, putting 34% at a starting of 160k. Assuming the other 66% make between 55-80k, 67k for our purposes, then the average starting salary would come out to 98k. I know that I am leaving out unemployment and school funded jobs and the like, but even accounting for those we are mostly only adjusting down to 90k for an average.

The standard response here would be, 90-100k jobs don't exist because midlaw is mythical. This is true. However, if we follow that rule of thumb directly you can only do one of two different options. A T14 at 160k or less, or any other school at 70kish or less.

LST big law number does not necessarily=160K FYI. That would depend on the market and the firm.

Unfortunately neither school publishes its NALP report so you're making some pretty big assumptions. Some percentage of those schools are straight up unemployed. Unemployed peeps don't make 67K. Also, some percentage "employed" as "lawyers" are solos on in firms of 2-10. Why would you assume those bros are making between 55-80k? Also, the PI bros will almost certainly be making less than even 55K.

I think you're greatly overestimating the starting salaries here but if you have more data than I could find on either school I would be glad to be corrected.

I think a T14 at around 160K or a strong regional at around 70K would be a really smart rule of thumb for people to adopt actually. It might be a bit too conservative and restrictive but its not that far off the mark, IMO.

[NDVWUSTL]

Could I get some input from a ND or WUSTL student or alum on the size of debt they thought was reasonable? I know I'm not the only one facing this decision.

You don't need them. Use LST and their employment reports.

The rule of thumb is to plan on a median outcome and plan to graduate only with the amount of debt equal to that median outcome's salary.

In other words, it's pretty tough to satisfy the rule with these costs. What are your other options?

I've done the research pretty extensively here, so I do know that it is difficult to satisfy that rule. But essentially, I'm not terribly off with these numbers. I'm sitting at 34%ish biglaw/fed clerkships for both schools, putting 34% at a starting of 160k. Assuming the other 66% make between 55-80k, 67k for our purposes, then the average starting salary would come out to 98k. I know that I am leaving out unemployment and school funded jobs and the like, but even accounting for those we are mostly only adjusting down to 90k for an average.

The standard response here would be, 90-100k jobs don't exist because midlaw is mythical. This is true. However, if we follow that rule of thumb directly you can only do one of two different options. A T14 at 160k or less, or any other school at 70kish or less.

LST big law number does not necessarily=160K FYI. That would depend on the market and the firm.

Unfortunately neither school publishes its NALP report so you're making some pretty big assumptions. Some percentage of those schools are straight up unemployed. Unemployed peeps don't make 67K. Also, some percentage "employed" as "lawyers" are solos on in firms of 2-10. Why would you assume those bros are making between 55-80k? Also, the PI bros will almost certainly be making less than even 55K.

I think you're greatly overestimating the starting salaries here but if you have more data than I could find on either school I would be glad to be corrected.

I think a T14 at around 160K or a strong regional at around 70K would be a really smart rule of thumb for people to adopt actually. It might be a bit too conservative and restrictive but its not that far off the mark, IMO.

Okay, given that, you think the extra 30k it would cost (I included interest and every other expense you can imagine) for WUSTL puts me firmly in re-take territory? I don't understand how 70k is close to the mark, but a little restrictive, but 100k is a no-go.

Eh, never-mind. I know you're just putting hypotheticals out there and you already recommended WUSTL, seeing as I will be picking one of these two options I could use additional feedback to put the decision into perspective.

[BigZuck]

Yeah, I mean, for me somewhere around 80K would be absolutely tops for WUSTL. I will end up paying less than that at a school with a little better placement and it still makes me nervous. That might be overly conservative, I think most people would be ok with a school like WUSTL at 100K.

Basically, I wouldn't do either at those prices but no way would I pay 20K more for ND so that's why I said WUSTL.

I also don't really get not applying to UIUC. I mean, none give you what I would call a meaningful shot at Chicago big law (especially if you're K-JD and/or don't have anything special going for you like good work experience, URM status, smoking hotness, etc.) but seems like that might have been your best option especially if it was significantly cheaper than these two.

[McAvoy]

I also don't really get not applying to UIUC. I mean, none give you what I would call a meaningful shot at Chicago big law (especially if you're K-JD and/or don't have anything special going for you like good work experience, URM status, smoking hotness, etc.) but seems like that might have been your best option especially if it was significantly cheaper than these two.

This is a really good point. This should be a much cheaper option, and your shot at Chicago will be just as good (as in it will be bad). It's a really tough market to crack if not UC/NU. As has been publicized quite a bit here, even Michigan grads are struggling to break in.

I think you are looking at the rosy end of the salary numbers, too. You don't need to plan on the worst case scenario (ie unemployed), but you shouldn't be planning for much more than that. If you graduate with a 50k job from ND (the most likely scenario) and have well over 100k in debt, you're going to be in a pretty tough situation. It's your life, but I'd either work for a few years and save up some dough, or go to a cheaper school (if retaking isn't an option for a while).

Good luck to you either way! (With law school, not your campaigning or proselytizing )

[Fiero85]

My online dyslexia got me for a second on this thread. I thought you said 120k for both, but I see now that it's ND 120k, WUSTL 102k.

Both are too expensive for my comfort, but not insane.

I'm WUSTL biased as a St. Louisan, but this is a tough choice objectively. ND is probably better for your ties+goals combo, but the question remains: "yes, but is it 18k better?"

I'd go with a resounding NO myself, but from what I've read it seems like you're leaning towards ND. It's so close that if you narrow it down to only these two (which btw, I think it's a mistake to ignore UIUC here), it's a personal preference choice.

Good luck!

[NDVWUSTL]

Yeah, I mean, for me somewhere around 80K would be absolutely tops for WUSTL. I will end up paying less than that at a school with a little better placement and it still makes me nervous. That might be overly conservative, I think most people would be ok with a school like WUSTL at 100K.

Basically, I wouldn't do either at those prices but no way would I pay 20K more for ND so that's why I said WUSTL.

I also don't really get not applying to UIUC. I mean, none give you what I would call a meaningful shot at Chicago big law (especially if you're K-JD and/or don't have anything special going for you like good work experience, URM status, smoking hotness, etc.) but seems like that might have been your best option especially if it was significantly cheaper than these two.

The lack of applying to UIUC is based on my overall dislike of the town and the undergrad institution. I grew up in Illinois and got enough of visiting it and such...something about anti-meth billboards on every street corner and a concentrated college party town really turned me off from it (sorry UIUC people, we all have our own issues).

I'm not K-JD thankfully and I do appreciate what this debt will be like. Sure, the legal market is garbage, sleazy lawyers are everywhere, and the legal industry may never garner the respect it once did, but I still I want to be proud of the degree I achieve. Even if I have to use the damn degree as a blanket because I'm drowning in debt, at the end of the day, I'm the only one it matters to.

This all is coming from someone who has known they wanted to be a lawyer from a very young age (with a good grasp on what that meant), so, to each their own.

[NDVWUSTL]

I also don't really get not applying to UIUC. I mean, none give you what I would call a meaningful shot at Chicago big law (especially if you're K-JD and/or don't have anything special going for you like good work experience, URM status, smoking hotness, etc.) but seems like that might have been your best option especially if it was significantly cheaper than these two.

This is a really good point. This should be a much cheaper option, and your shot at Chicago will be just as good (as in it will be bad). It's a really tough market to crack if not UC/NU. As has been publicized quite a bit here, even Michigan grads are struggling to break in.

I think you are looking at the rosy end of the salary numbers, too. You don't need to plan on the worst case scenario (ie unemployed), but you shouldn't be planning for much more than that. If you graduate with a 50k job from ND (the most likely scenario) and have well over 100k in debt, you're going to be in a pretty tough situation. It's your life, but I'd either work for a few years and save up some dough, or go to a cheaper school (if retaking isn't an option for a while).

Good luck to you either way! (With law school, not your campaigning or proselytizing )

When it comes to the republican party, campaigning usually is proselytizing.

[McAvoy]

I also don't really get not applying to UIUC. I mean, none give you what I would call a meaningful shot at Chicago big law (especially if you're K-JD and/or don't have anything special going for you like good work experience, URM status, smoking hotness, etc.) but seems like that might have been your best option especially if it was significantly cheaper than these two.

This is a really good point. This should be a much cheaper option, and your shot at Chicago will be just as good (as in it will be bad). It's a really tough market to crack if not UC/NU. As has been publicized quite a bit here, even Michigan grads are struggling to break in.

I think you are looking at the rosy end of the salary numbers, too. You don't need to plan on the worst case scenario (ie unemployed), but you shouldn't be planning for much more than that. If you graduate with a 50k job from ND (the most likely scenario) and have well over 100k in debt, you're going to be in a pretty tough situation. It's your life, but I'd either work for a few years and save up some dough, or go to a cheaper school (if retaking isn't an option for a while).

Good luck to you either way! (With law school, not your campaigning or proselytizing )

When it comes to the republican party, campaigning usually is proselytizing.

Lol. Truth.

[McAvoy]

The lack of applying to UIUC is based on my overall dislike of the town and the undergrad institution. I grew up in Illinois and got enough of visiting it and such...something about anti-meth billboards on every street corner and a concentrated college party town really turned me off from it (sorry UIUC people, we all have our own issues).

I'm not K-JD thankfully and I do appreciate what this debt will be like. Sure, the legal market is garbage, sleazy lawyers are everywhere, and the legal industry may never garner the respect it once did, but I still I want to be proud of the degree I achieve. Even if I have to use the damn degree as a blanket because I'm drowning in debt, at the end of the day, I'm the only one it matters to.

This all is coming from someone who has known they wanted to be a lawyer from a very young age (with a good grasp on what that meant), so, to each their own.

Agreed on Champaign, I don't get the appeal at all.

But still. Right, you should not go to a school if you would not be proud to list on your resume, but if all you're looking for a JD to sleep with (the physical degree), there are much cheaper JDs that will be equally appealing to lay lady-folk at your local tavern (or church choir, I guess).

I don't really get why you're trying to get us all to validate your options/decision then say you don't care and you're the only one it matters to. Make sure you know what you're doing... That's a lot of money. Good luck!

[NDVWUSTL]

The lack of applying to UIUC is based on my overall dislike of the town and the undergrad institution. I grew up in Illinois and got enough of visiting it and such...something about anti-meth billboards on every street corner and a concentrated college party town really turned me off from it (sorry UIUC people, we all have our own issues).

I'm not K-JD thankfully and I do appreciate what this debt will be like. Sure, the legal market is garbage, sleazy lawyers are everywhere, and the legal industry may never garner the respect it once did, but I still I want to be proud of the degree I achieve. Even if I have to use the damn degree as a blanket because I'm drowning in debt, at the end of the day, I'm the only one it matters to.

This all is coming from someone who has known they wanted to be a lawyer from a very young age (with a good grasp on what that meant), so, to each their own.

Agreed on Champaign, I don't get the appeal at all.

But still. Right, you should not go to a school if you would not be proud to list on your resume, but if all you're looking for a JD to sleep with (the physical degree), there are much cheaper JDs that will be equally appealing to lay lady-folk at your local tavern (or church choir, I guess).

I don't really get why you're trying to get us all to validate your options/decision then say you don't care and you're the only one it matters to. Make sure you know what you're doing... That's a lot of money. Good luck!

Not at all attempting to get anyone to validate my decisions. I apologize if that's the way it came off. Just trying to get a grasp on whether or not this really is a coin flip or not based off of the available information. Given identical circumstances (identical to mine), would people choose one over the other, hence the poll. And I absolutely do care what others' opinions are on this, that's why I asked. However, no matter what happens, I am the only one it truly matters to. I think that saying that someone saying "in the end, this decision will only matter to me" and "I don't care what other people recommend" are two very different things.

If anyone else reads this, please do not be deterred from responding. This is a huge decision, I only have two weeks to make it, and I have no idea which to choose.

[kyle010723]

Honestly, I am with others as to why not give UIUC a try. It would be the cheapest option. But if you just want me to pick between the two. I would go with ND. And perhaps because I am bias (full disclaimer, current ND student). But both ND and WUSTL place similar in "BigLaw," 25% or so. And being a conservative, that would give you a big boost for clerkship at ND. And you want Chicago, so the Chicago program at ND would be ideal for you. Whether that is worth 20k more? That is up to you. But based on your background and strictly picking between these two school, I would go with ND.

[ldlamb]

Also, I am a Catholic, and I have experience working for the republican party

Also, don't run around telling people these things when you're looking for jobs. Not gonna help, but could hurt.

Bummer that you'd probably face eternal punishment for eating a steak today. I'll have one for you!

And yeah, I don't plan to. Most of the legal world is liberal and being Catholic is nearly only a detriment. But again, this same rule does not apply for clerkship placement. And yeah, as much as I love fish fry it does get old pretty quick, that catholic guilt is real.

Come on, fish frys with cheap beer never gets old. Plus its only 6 weeks a year.

[JCougar]

You're greatly overestimating salaries.

I'm sitting at 34%ish biglaw/fed clerkships for both schools, putting 34% at a starting of 160k.

Biglaw doesn't necessarily mean $160K. Biglaw in St. Louis pays either $110K or $125. Some Chicago firms pay $145. Other cities pay like $100K, like Indianapolis. Also, some biglaw offices in smaller cities pay $90K.

Assuming the other 66% make between 55-80k, 67k for our purposes

You should really not assume this. There are hardly any non-OCI/biglaw jobs that pay around 80K. The pay range of people who don't get Biglaw from these schools is likely somewhere between $30K and $60K, with only a handful of exceptions above 60K, and quite a few more making $0.

[BigZuck]

You're greatly overestimating salaries.

I'm sitting at 34%ish biglaw/fed clerkships for both schools, putting 34% at a starting of 160k.

Biglaw doesn't necessarily mean $160K. Biglaw in St. Louis pays either $110K or $125. Some Chicago firms pay $145. Other cities pay like $100K, like Indianapolis. Also, some biglaw offices in smaller cities pay $90K.

Assuming the other 66% make between 55-80k, 67k for our purposes

You should really not assume this. There are hardly any non-OCI/biglaw jobs that pay around 80K. The pay range of people who don't get Biglaw from these schools is likely somewhere between $30K and $60K, with only a handful of exceptions above 60K, and quite a few more making $0.

So, basically what I said?

[ndirish2010]

Given your religion and political affiliation, Notre Dame would be much better for you. However, I'm not sure either is a great idea at that price.

I'm a 2013 NDLS grad, PM me if you have any questions. I know deposit day should be coming up soon?