Choosing a law school. Help please! Forum

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snozzberry

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Choosing a law school. Help please!

Post by snozzberry » Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:22 am

I am currently finishing a Ph.D. degree in Chemistry and will be going to law school next year to become a patent attorney. I am have a VERY hard time deciding on a school. I ideally want to work in NYC and a big law firm. I have gotten into Cardozo in the May Part-Time program, which I opted for, to try to make the first year easier. They are giving me $30,000 a year provided I maintain in the top 80% of the class. St. John's is offering a full-tuition scholarship, but that is contingent upon remaining in the top 40% of the class. Lower than that, and my scholarship would be decreased or lost. Penn State and Syracuse are offering full-tuition as well, but I am entertaining those offers less since I want to work in NY, even though I got a good feeling from both schools. The admissions officer at Cardozo scared me a bit about St. John's in terms of losing the scholarship or having it reduced, and that breeding a very competitive atmosphere among the students. Any thoughts or help on where to go?

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Nucky

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Re: Choosing a law school. Help please!

Post by Nucky » Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:26 am

Retake

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transferror

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Re: Choosing a law school. Help please!

Post by transferror » Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:27 am

Don't do a part-time program.

InTheHouse

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Re: Choosing a law school. Help please!

Post by InTheHouse » Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:32 am

snozzberry wrote:I am currently finishing a Ph.D. degree in Chemistry and will be going to law school next year to become a patent attorney. I am have a VERY hard time deciding on a school. I ideally want to work in NYC and a big law firm. I have gotten into Cardozo in the May Part-Time program, which I opted for, to try to make the first year easier. They are giving me $30,000 a year provided I maintain in the top 80% of the class. St. John's is offering a full-tuition scholarship, but that is contingent upon remaining in the top 40% of the class. Lower than that, and my scholarship would be decreased or lost. Penn State and Syracuse are offering full-tuition as well, but I am entertaining those offers less since I want to work in NY, even though I got a good feeling from both schools. The admissions officer at Cardozo scared me a bit about St. John's in terms of losing the scholarship or having it reduced, and that breeding a very competitive atmosphere among the students. Any thoughts or help on where to go?
I assume this means you're settled on patent prosecution?

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Re: Choosing a law school. Help please!

Post by BigZuck » Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:34 am

Are you aware of your chances at big law from any of these schools? If so, what are they?

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InTheHouse

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Re: Choosing a law school. Help please!

Post by InTheHouse » Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:42 am

BigZuck wrote:Are you aware of your chances at big law from any of these schools? If so, what are they?
<facepalm>

OP, not everyone here is going to appreciate that getting patent prosecution job is a tad bit easier than other Biglaw jobs. I'm a patent attorney (EE) in DC and even I can't tell you. There's a small enough supply of PhDs in chemistry that a Cardozo degree isn't going to be the kiss of death. Obviously, a better law school would help. But you need to talk to recent graduates in your field who are looking to do patent prosecution.

If you're gunning for litigation at a large law firm in NYC, all the standard TLS advice applies.

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Re: Choosing a law school. Help please!

Post by BigZuck » Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:46 am

InTheHouse wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Are you aware of your chances at big law from any of these schools? If so, what are they?
<facepalm>

OP, not everyone here is going to appreciate that getting patent prosecution job is a tad bit easier than other Biglaw jobs. I'm a patent attorney (EE) in DC and even I can't tell you. There's a small enough supply of PhDs in chemistry that a Cardozo degree isn't going to be the kiss of death. Obviously, a better law school would help. But you need to talk to recent graduates in your field who are looking to do patent prosecution.

If you're gunning for litigation at a large law firm in NYC, all the standard TLS advice applies.
I'm not asking him to look at LST, dummy. I'm asking him about his chances at big law. He wants IP. So what are the chances he gets that kind of job from those schools?

I would appreciate it if you would stop being dumb. Or at least think before you facepalm.

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Re: Choosing a law school. Help please!

Post by BigZuck » Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:49 am

Also, you kind of need to quantify a "tad." Because if big law chances go from a 10% probability to a 15% probability that's almost certainly not worth it. It was an honest question- what chance does he have at those jobs from these schools? That's what I'm asking, dumb dumb.

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Re: Choosing a law school. Help please!

Post by snozzberry » Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:59 am

According to the 2013 data, students going to a full time long term firm of 501+ attorneys for Cardozo is 30/257, 11.67% and for St. John's is 15/141, 10.6%. I have heard for patent law (I would do prosecution or litigation right now), it is easier. That firms go to lower ranked schools and lower GPA (a bit, I am aware I still need to do well and be at the top as much as possible) since a technical degree is required.

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mx23250

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Re: Choosing a law school. Help please!

Post by mx23250 » Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:08 am

snozzberry wrote:According to the 2013 data, students going to a full time long term firm of 501+ attorneys for Cardozo is 30/257, 11.67% and for St. John's is 15/141, 10.6%. I have heard for patent law (I would do prosecution or litigation right now), it is easier. That firms go to lower ranked schools and lower GPA (a bit, I am aware I still need to do well and be at the top as much as possible) since a technical degree is required.
If you go this route PT, you should try to take the patent bar asap and get a job at a firm as a technical advisor or patent agent. That will get you patent prosecution experience during law school and might even result in the firm paying your tuition while you get a very generous salary. Also, if you get this gig at a big law firm they'll hire you at graduation as a patent attorney.

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Re: Choosing a law school. Help please!

Post by BigZuck » Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:13 am

snozzberry wrote:According to the 2013 data, students going to a full time long term firm of 501+ attorneys for Cardozo is 30/257, 11.67% and for St. John's is 15/141, 10.6%. I have heard for patent law (I would do prosecution or litigation right now), it is easier. That firms go to lower ranked schools and lower GPA (a bit, I am aware I still need to do well and be at the top as much as possible) since a technical degree is required.
Right. That's what I've heard too. So how much easier? Can you get these jobs at median? Do you still need to be like top 20%? That's key. Because if you are still largely relying on these school's big law placement ability in a meaningful sense I don't think it's worth it. If the JD is just a formality and you can get the job almost regardless of grades then that's a different story. "It's easier" isn't good enough. How much easier? If its just a "tad" then you need to go to better schools than these, IMO.

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Re: Choosing a law school. Help please!

Post by theotherone823 » Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:17 am

transferror wrote:Don't do a part-time program.

The Cardozo May-start program isn't really a part-time program. 1L is extended over the course of 3 semesters instead of 2 and those students only take 3 classes per semester. But after 1L, all of the May-start students take classes full time like any other student.

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SFrost

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Re: Choosing a law school. Help please!

Post by SFrost » Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:24 am

Most people here won't be able to give informed answers since they have no experience in science or scientific patent law.

A science PhD advertises you as knowledgeable in an area. Unfortunately, most people don't care much about the PhD when assessing knowledge; they look at your publications. If you didn't have a productive PhD, go for a better school.

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mx23250

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Re: Choosing a law school. Help please!

Post by mx23250 » Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:31 am

SFrost wrote:Most people here won't be able to give informed answers since they have no experience in science or scientific patent law.

A science PhD advertises you as knowledgeable in an area. Unfortunately, most people don't care much about the PhD when assessing knowledge; they look at your publications. If you didn't have a productive PhD, go for a better school.
This is what I think too. I kept my publications on my resume for this reason. However, I've heard some people say you should leave publications off your resume, even if you're gunning for IP. I think this is ridiculously stupid advice. You're being hired for your technical knowledge and nothing displays it better than a list of your peer-reviewed scientific publications, which are by far the best credentials for someone hoping for a patent prosecution career. True, it takes up a lot of space on your resume (I have 10 publications), but it's worth it to list them.

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Re: Choosing a law school. Help please!

Post by Jchance » Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:34 am

Not many on this forum can offer u a solid advice on your patent path as PhD Chem.

You should call up an recent grad patent attorney with a similar background as u and ask for career advice. If I were u, I'd take the patent bar asap, then start working as a patent agent and talk to attorneys at the firm. I wouldnt rush into law school given those options.
mx23250 wrote:
SFrost wrote:Most people here won't be able to give informed answers since they have no experience in science or scientific patent law.

A science PhD advertises you as knowledgeable in an area. Unfortunately, most people don't care much about the PhD when assessing knowledge; they look at your publications. If you didn't have a productive PhD, go for a better school.
This is what I think too. I kept my publications on my resume for this reason. However, I've heard some people say you should leave publications off your resume, even if you're gunning for IP. I think this is ridiculously stupid advice. You're being hired for your technical knowledge and nothing displays it better than a list of your peer-reviewed scientific publications, which are by far the best credentials for someone hoping for a patent prosecution career. True, it takes up a lot of space on your resume (I have 10 publications), but it's worth it to list them.
Regarding publication, if u have 10, dont list the title, but only list where you published at, 10 pubs is a clutter on a resume. If you have 2, list all the details.

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Re: Choosing a law school. Help please!

Post by InTheHouse » Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:50 am

snozzberry wrote:According to the 2013 data, students going to a full time long term firm of 501+ attorneys for Cardozo is 30/257, 11.67% and for St. John's is 15/141, 10.6%. I have heard for patent law (I would do prosecution or litigation right now), it is easier. That firms go to lower ranked schools and lower GPA (a bit, I am aware I still need to do well and be at the top as much as possible) since a technical degree is required.
I don't know that there's a good way to find out. You're going to have to do some legwork. Even if Dozo does a good job of keeping track of its graduates (which I doubt), I don't know that you're going to have much of a sample size to work with when you narrow things down to recent Dozo graduates + IP + PhD in Bio/Chem/Pharma.

Then there's the NYC thing. In addition to Cardozo's placement numbers, you probably should get a feel for what the market for patent prosecution in NYC is like. Do you know which firms have big biotech practices in NYC? I graduated a couple of years ago from UCLA when hiring was down. However, everyone in biotech (with an advanced degree) who wanted to do prosecution landed a boutique/big firm job. So boutique/big firm placement was probably 100% for patent prosecution vs. 30% for the class overall. Some people ended up in Boston and DC, but I believe none of the biotech people ended up in NYC. I don't know why that is. Either people didn't want to go there or its a touch market to crack.

Any particular reason you want to do IP in NYC?

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Re: Choosing a law school. Help please!

Post by InTheHouse » Fri Apr 04, 2014 11:06 am

Jchance wrote:If I were u, I'd take the patent bar asap, then start working as a patent agent and talk to attorneys at the firm. I wouldnt rush into law school given those options.
Assuming you don't absolutely have to go to law school this year, ^^^ is the best advice. Some of the big IP firms still pay for your law school while you work as a patent agent/technology specialists/patent scientist. I imagine you'll enjoy making some money after all those years in graduate school.

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Jchance

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Re: Choosing a law school. Help please!

Post by Jchance » Fri Apr 04, 2014 11:51 am

InTheHouse wrote:I believe none of the biotech people ended up in NYC. I don't know why that is. Either people didn't want to go there or its a touch market to crack.
?
Because there is no market for biotech in NYC (not enough biotech work there)

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Re: Choosing a law school. Help please!

Post by InTheHouse » Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:41 pm

Jchance wrote:
InTheHouse wrote:I believe none of the biotech people ended up in NYC. I don't know why that is. Either people didn't want to go there or its a touch market to crack.
?
Because there is no market for biotech in NYC (not enough biotech work there)
Hmmm .... Thought this might be true, but never cared enough to investigate.

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aboutmydaylight

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Re: Choosing a law school. Help please!

Post by aboutmydaylight » Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:55 pm

Re-take man. If you have a chem PhD you have to have the ability to study more for the LSAT and get into a better school than Cardozo. What are your stats?

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