Less Debt (USD) vs. Better School (UCI) Forum

[bkegslounge]

I know the most popular answer with be "retake" as that is TLS's mantra but please assume I have adequately considered that option so there's no need to beat the dead horse. I'm not saying I won't retake, I just don't need to debate that option again.

At this point in the cycle, my options have come down to UC-Irvine and University of San Diego. I received $99k over three years from USD with no stip. I actually have not heard from UCI yet so I'm basing this hypo off the assumption that I'll eventually get in with no scholarship offer (*knock on wood*). However, if I choose UCI, I can live at home and save on room and board.

Using Lawschool22's COA spreadsheet from this forum, I approximated my costs for going to both schools and would like some input on my decision.

Total debt at repayment for USD = ~$120,000
Total debt at repayment for UCI = ~$180,000

On a 10 yr loan repayment plan, this breaks down to ~$1500/month out of my paycheck for USD and ~$2200/month for UCI.

UCI's employment stats are obviously significantly better than USD's stats. I haven't decided quite yet what field I want to pursue but I'm fairly certain it'll be in the private sector probably with a medium to large firm I hope.

I know this is a gross simplification but my question is: based on this information do you guys think the salary I could potentially get from a job out of UCI will make up for difference in debt from choosing UCI over USD?

Please feel free to kindly point out extremely obviously variables I may be missing, but I tried to keep it simple.

Thanks in advance!

FYI, stats in my profile

[redsox]

Good luck! Follow your dreams!

[PrideandGlory1776]

UCI - 13/84 101+ Firms 15/84 Fed Clerkship = 33.33% Optimal Outcomes
http://www.law.uci.edu/careers/students ... -2013.html

USD - 30/318 100+ Firms 1/318 Fed Clerkship = 9.7% Optimal Outcomes
http://www.sandiego.edu/law/careers/stu ... a-2013.php

UCI with a full-ride or close to it would make sense but 180k is out of the question. USD even at a full-ride wouldn't make a whole heck of a lot of sense but would at least be within the realm of possibility at these current costs though neither of these schools is an acceptable option. Re-take and re-apply next year.

[bkegslounge]

Good luck! Follow your dreams!

I didn't realize the mods auto-corrected this. That's hilarious

[californiauser]

I'm not sure either of these schools are worth attending for free if you want a reasonably well paying job (mid/big law)

There schools aren't worth anything close to 6 figures

[bkegslounge]

UCI - 13/84 101+ Firms 15/84 Fed Clerkship = 33.33% Optimal Outcomes
http://www.law.uci.edu/careers/students ... -2013.html

USD - 30/318 100+ Firms 1/318 Fed Clerkship = 9.7% Optimal Outcomes
http://www.sandiego.edu/law/careers/stu ... a-2013.php

UCI with a full-ride or close to it would make sense but 180k is out of the question. USD even at a full-ride wouldn't make a whole heck of a lot of sense but would at least be within the realm of possibility at these current costs though neither of these schools is an acceptable option. Re-take and re-apply next year.

I'm certainly not dismissing your comment, but I know the numbers. Are you of the opinion then that law school flat out isn't worth it for anyone not going to a T14 or a full-ride to Tier 1 school? Period.

[redsox]

Good luck! Follow your dreams!

I didn't realize the mods auto-corrected this. That's hilarious

It is, isn't it?

[n1o2c3a4c5h6e7t]

I'm certainly not dismissing your comment, but I know the numbers. Are you of the opinion then that law school flat out isn't worth it for anyone not going to a T14 or a full-ride to Tier 1 school? Period.

I'm not the person to whom you are responding, but I do not share that putative opinion. I think lots of schools could be worthwhile investments with enough scholarship $, assuming that you can avoid or greatly minimize debt. I also think certain T14s at sticker are horrible investments. A good rule of thumb is to take as much debt as your likely first year salary, and it is incredibly unlikely that you make 120k+ from either of these schools. In addition, UCI is a very new school and few people predict that it can continue to burn so brightly.

I'd retake (lol at auto-edit).

[BigZuck]

If you're aware of the numbers then why would you say "Should I go to USD?" and "I want big law" in the same post?

Also, midlaw doesn't really exist, especially not for freshly-minted grads and especially especially not for schmoy freshly-minted grads. If you somehow pulled out great grades (very unlikely for us mere mortals) then you might have a shot at big law from these schools.

This all depends on what your dreams really are. Is it big law? Then follow them to a T14 (or, maybe UCLA/USC on a big scholarship). Is it a 40-60K small law job or something in the public interest? Then follow them to a solid school on a full ride.

As a general rule of thumb, there are 4 law schools in CA worth attending and the lowest ranked is USC. UCI or some of the others could possibly be worth attending if they were very cheap and you had particular career goals. That's it.

I get that you want to pay over 100K to go to one of these schools and end up with a 100K job but that's trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Or, realistically, a virtually non-existent hole.

[bkegslounge]

I'm certainly not dismissing your comment, but I know the numbers. Are you of the opinion then that law school flat out isn't worth it for anyone not going to a T14 or a full-ride to Tier 1 school? Period.

I'm not the person to whom you are responding, but I do not share that putative opinion. I think lots of schools could be worthwhile investments with enough scholarship $, assuming that you can avoid or greatly minimize debt. I also think certain T14s at sticker are horrible investments. A good rule of thumb is to take as much debt as your likely first year salary, and it is incredibly unlikely that you make 120k+ from either of these schools. In addition, UCI is a very new school and few people predict that it can continue to burn so brightly.

I'd Good luck! Follow your dreams! (lol at auto-edit).

Hmm what's the reasoning behind that rule of thumb? It sounds like solid advice.

Also, my aunt works at UCI and is very "in the know" about the law school. She went to Stanford undergrad and Boalt Law. Sold her soul to top BigLaw firms for a while before burning out and now is on the board of various non-profits and runs a program at UCI on the side. She knows Dean Chem and has followed the law school from the beginning. (Sorry, I'm just establishing her credibility). Basically, I sat down with her and she said UCI is worth it for me. OC firms are very invested in the future of the law school and many of them exclusively hire UCI grads now. She wouldn't bullshit me, but she also hinted that I won't be homeless on the street with $100k debt out of law school. While I'm still paying for law school on my own, I think I'll have a slight advantage as far as connections for finding a job. I guess this makes my scenario more personal but we all have personal factors that contribute to our decision.

I don't hold her opinion on golden pedestal but I do believe she knows what she's talking about. With that in mind, would I still be making a grave mistake taking on that much debt?

[Jchance]

Hmm what's the reasoning behind that rule of thumb? It sounds like solid advice.

Also, my aunt works at UCI and is very "in the know" about the law school. She went to Stanford undergrad and Boalt Law. Sold her soul to top BigLaw firms for a while before burning out and now is on the board of various non-profits and runs a program at UCI on the side. She knows Dean Chem and has followed the law school from the beginning. (Sorry, I'm just establishing her credibility). Basically, I sat down with her and she said UCI is worth it for me. OC firms are very invested in the future of the law school and many of them exclusively hire UCI grads now. She wouldn't bullshit me, but she also hinted that I won't be homeless on the street with $100k debt out of law school. While I'm still paying for law school on my own, I think I'll have a slight advantage as far as connections for finding a job. I guess this makes my scenario more personal but we all have personal factors that contribute to our decision.

I don't hold her opinion on golden pedestal but I do believe she knows what she's talking about. With that in mind, would I still be making a grave mistake taking on that much debt?

Can your aunt get you a legal job after u graduate that can finance that much debt? If not, don't go to law school

[BigZuck]

I'm certainly not dismissing your comment, but I know the numbers. Are you of the opinion then that law school flat out isn't worth it for anyone not going to a T14 or a full-ride to Tier 1 school? Period.

I'm not the person to whom you are responding, but I do not share that putative opinion. I think lots of schools could be worthwhile investments with enough scholarship $, assuming that you can avoid or greatly minimize debt. I also think certain T14s at sticker are horrible investments. A good rule of thumb is to take as much debt as your likely first year salary, and it is incredibly unlikely that you make 120k+ from either of these schools. In addition, UCI is a very new school and few people predict that it can continue to burn so brightly.

I'd Good luck! Follow your dreams! (lol at auto-edit).

Hmm what's the reasoning behind that rule of thumb? It sounds like solid advice.

Also, my aunt works at UCI and is very "in the know" about the law school. She went to Stanford undergrad and Boalt Law. Sold her soul to top BigLaw firms for a while before burning out and now is on the board of various non-profits and runs a program at UCI on the side. She knows Dean Chem and has followed the law school from the beginning. (Sorry, I'm just establishing her credibility). Basically, I sat down with her and she said UCI is worth it for me. OC firms are very invested in the future of the law school and many of them exclusively hire UCI grads now. She wouldn't bullshit me, but she also hinted that I won't be homeless on the street with $100k debt out of law school. While I'm still paying for law school on my own, I think I'll have a slight advantage as far as connections for finding a job. I guess this makes my scenario more personal but we all have personal factors that contribute to our decision.

I don't hold her opinion on golden pedestal but I do believe she knows what she's talking about. With that in mind, would I still be making a grave mistake taking on that much debt?

Your aunt really thinks you should take out 180k in debt to go to UCI and can promise you a job paying 160k?

[bkegslounge]

I'm certainly not dismissing your comment, but I know the numbers. Are you of the opinion then that law school flat out isn't worth it for anyone not going to a T14 or a full-ride to Tier 1 school? Period.

I'm not the person to whom you are responding, but I do not share that putative opinion. I think lots of schools could be worthwhile investments with enough scholarship $, assuming that you can avoid or greatly minimize debt. I also think certain T14s at sticker are horrible investments. A good rule of thumb is to take as much debt as your likely first year salary, and it is incredibly unlikely that you make 120k+ from either of these schools. In addition, UCI is a very new school and few people predict that it can continue to burn so brightly.

I'd Good luck! Follow your dreams! (lol at auto-edit).

Hmm what's the reasoning behind that rule of thumb? It sounds like solid advice.

Also, my aunt works at UCI and is very "in the know" about the law school. She went to Stanford undergrad and Boalt Law. Sold her soul to top BigLaw firms for a while before burning out and now is on the board of various non-profits and runs a program at UCI on the side. She knows Dean Chem and has followed the law school from the beginning. (Sorry, I'm just establishing her credibility). Basically, I sat down with her and she said UCI is worth it for me. OC firms are very invested in the future of the law school and many of them exclusively hire UCI grads now. She wouldn't bullshit me, but she also hinted that I won't be homeless on the street with $100k debt out of law school. While I'm still paying for law school on my own, I think I'll have a slight advantage as far as connections for finding a job. I guess this makes my scenario more personal but we all have personal factors that contribute to our decision.

I don't hold her opinion on golden pedestal but I do believe she knows what she's talking about. With that in mind, would I still be making a grave mistake taking on that much debt?

Your aunt really thinks you should take out 180k in debt to go to UCI and can promise you a job paying 160k?

No. She just believes a law degree is much more valuable long term. She doesn't believe reasonable debt should deter anyone from pursuing law school if that's what they really want to do. Define "reasonable" as you will I guess.

[n1o2c3a4c5h6e7t]

Can your aunt get you a legal job after u graduate that can finance that much debt? If not, don't go to law school

This. If you have a job lined up no matter what, I would go to the cheapest school possible. If she is offering you a job conditional on you matriculating at UCI, well, that's just weird.

[timbs4339]

The very reasons you listed why your aunt has "credibility" are the same reasons why you shouldn't listen to her. She's overly invested in the school, and, quite frankly, boomers give really crappy advice about law school. She's at least right you won't be 100K in debt, as you correctly noted it's more like 180K, which is an amount of law school debt I am not sure most older lawyers can fully comprehend. And I'd give the predictions of a boomer grad from two elite schools who worked in biglaw about the future of the legal profession as it applies to most lawyers as much weight as any guy off the street. It's a different world than the one they graduated into.

As a concept, UCI just doesn't work. That was even before applications cratered. Any stats you see need to take into account that the school will be adding dozens more students per year, which is going to decrease the employment rate in elite job. Also remember that the gross number of fed clerkships is going to start to wane as professors find that federal judges are not going to want to hold a spot open for a UCI grad year after year (it's going to be three years before you can apply for clerkships- a lot can happen).

Unfortunately, I think you know the right answer which is to do that thing that the mods decided to autocorrect.

[prezidentv8]

At this point in the cycle, my options have come down to UC-Irvine and University of San Diego.

Total debt at repayment for USD = ~$120,000
Total debt at repayment for UCI = ~$180,000

On a 10 yr loan repayment plan, this breaks down to ~$1500/month out of my paycheck for USD and ~$2200/month for UCI.

I haven't decided quite yet what field I want to pursue but I'm fairly certain it'll be in the private sector probably with a medium to large firm I hope.

[twenty]

OC firms are very invested in the future of the law school and many of them exclusively hire UCI grads now.

Considering that UCI took a massive tumble from CO12 to CO13 in terms of placing law grads in big firms and an even larger tumble in federal clerkship numbers, local firms' investment in the school is not going to make up for the fact that the OC/LA legal market sucks. Furthermore, hiring at UCI (as a percentage of the class) is going down, not up. With a good size expansion in class size last year, it's unquestioningly going to be worse for the next 3-4 years.

She wouldn't bullshit me, but she also hinted that I won't be homeless on the street with $100k debt out of law school.

That's true, since you'll have upwards of 180k in debt. If someone gave you a 33% chance (roughly your chances of getting a biglaw/A3 out of UCI) of getting a job that would allow you to pay back your loans, would you take that?

Instead of providing you life ruining advice, can't your aunt use her special connections to get you significantly more money at UCI?

[bkegslounge]

At this point in the cycle, my options have come down to UC-Irvine and University of San Diego.

Total debt at repayment for USD = ~$120,000
Total debt at repayment for UCI = ~$180,000

On a 10 yr loan repayment plan, this breaks down to ~$1500/month out of my paycheck for USD and ~$2200/month for UCI.

I haven't decided quite yet what field I want to pursue but I'm fairly certain it'll be in the private sector probably with a medium to large firm I hope.

^ You win

[bkegslounge]

OC firms are very invested in the future of the law school and many of them exclusively hire UCI grads now.

Considering that UCI took a massive tumble from CO12 to CO13 in terms of placing law grads in big firms and an even larger tumble in federal clerkship numbers, local firms' investment in the school is not going to make up for the fact that the OC/LA legal market sucks. Furthermore, hiring at UCI (as a percentage of the class) is going down, not up. With a good size expansion in class size last year, it's unquestioningly going to be worse for the next 3-4 years.

She wouldn't bullshit me, but she also hinted that I won't be homeless on the street with $100k debt out of law school.

That's true, since you'll have upwards of 180k in debt. If someone gave you a 33% chance (roughly your chances of getting a biglaw/A3 out of UCI) of getting a job that would allow you to pay back your loans, would you take that?

Instead of providing you life ruining advice, can't your aunt use her special connections to get you significantly more money at UCI?

Well, she hinted at it... not sure what she'll actually do. She said "let me know what the school's decision is and I'll make some calls for you." I didn't pry any further.

[n1o2c3a4c5h6e7t]

Hmm what's the reasoning behind that rule of thumb? It sounds like solid advice.

Haha fair question. I'm fairly ignorant as to the math behind that rule of thumb, but I've seen it a number of times and I like the idea. It seems like you could easily pay off debt within 3-5 years with such a salary.

[timbs4339]

OC firms are very invested in the future of the law school and many of them exclusively hire UCI grads now.

Considering that UCI took a massive tumble from CO12 to CO13 in terms of placing law grads in big firms and an even larger tumble in federal clerkship numbers, local firms' investment in the school is not going to make up for the fact that the OC/LA legal market sucks. Furthermore, hiring at UCI (as a percentage of the class) is going down, not up. With a good size expansion in class size last year, it's unquestioningly going to be worse for the next 3-4 years.

She wouldn't bullshit me, but she also hinted that I won't be homeless on the street with $100k debt out of law school.

That's true, since you'll have upwards of 180k in debt. If someone gave you a 33% chance (roughly your chances of getting a biglaw/A3 out of UCI) of getting a job that would allow you to pay back your loans, would you take that?

Instead of providing you life ruining advice, can't your aunt use her special connections to get you significantly more money at UCI?

Well, she hinted at it... not sure what she'll actually do. She said "let me know what the school's decision is and I'll make some calls for you." I didn't pry any further.

I would not take that as a very good sign, although you were right not to pry- remember A LOT of people going to law schools are upper middle class and have similar or better connections.

[Tiago Splitter]

Also, my aunt works at UCI and is very "in the know" about the law school. She went to Stanford undergrad and Boalt Law. Sold her soul to top BigLaw firms for a while before burning out and now is on the board of various non-profits and runs a program at UCI on the side. She knows Dean Chem and has followed the law school from the beginning. (Sorry, I'm just establishing her credibility). Basically, I sat down with her and she said UCI is worth it for me. OC firms are very invested in the future of the law school and many of them exclusively hire UCI grads now. She wouldn't bullshit me, but she also hinted that I won't be homeless on the street with $100k debt out of law school. While I'm still paying for law school on my own, I think I'll have a slight advantage as far as connections for finding a job. I guess this makes my scenario more personal but we all have personal factors that contribute to our decision.

1. I'd be curious to know what OC firms exclusively hire UCI grads. If any do, they aren't ones you'd traditionally call BigLaw firms. Dean Chem might have enough pull to get a handful of OC and even LA offices to hire one UCI grad, but that only gets you 10-15 people. Not a good deal when you have 120 grads (and going up) and certainly not worth 180k.

2. Does your aunt know how much tuition is these days? Not being facetious. Even people who graduated 5-10 years ago are sometimes shocked when they see how expensive this stuff has gotten. Even many professors would be surprised to find out the tuition at their own school.

3. Your debt is not going to be 100k. It's going to be 180k.

4. No one lives on the street with 100k debt (or 180k) because of PAYE, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.

[bkegslounge]

The very reasons you listed why your aunt has "credibility" are the same reasons why you shouldn't listen to her. She's overly invested in the school, and, quite frankly, boomers give really crappy advice about law school. She's at least right you won't be 100K in debt, as you correctly noted it's more like 180K, which is an amount of law school debt I am not sure most older lawyers can fully comprehend. And I'd give the predictions of a boomer grad from two elite schools who worked in biglaw about the future of the legal profession as it applies to most lawyers as much weight as any guy off the street. It's a different world than the one they graduated into.

As a concept, UCI just doesn't work. That was even before applications cratered. Any stats you see need to take into account that the school will be adding dozens more students per year, which is going to decrease the employment rate in elite job. Also remember that the gross number of fed clerkships is going to start to wane as professors find that federal judges are not going to want to hold a spot open for a UCI grad year after year (it's going to be three years before you can apply for clerkships- a lot can happen).

Unfortunately, I think you know the right answer which is to do that thing that the mods decided to autocorrect.

Fair point. You mean retake retake retake retake retake

[timbs4339]

The very reasons you listed why your aunt has "credibility" are the same reasons why you shouldn't listen to her. She's overly invested in the school, and, quite frankly, boomers give really crappy advice about law school. She's at least right you won't be 100K in debt, as you correctly noted it's more like 180K, which is an amount of law school debt I am not sure most older lawyers can fully comprehend. And I'd give the predictions of a boomer grad from two elite schools who worked in biglaw about the future of the legal profession as it applies to most lawyers as much weight as any guy off the street. It's a different world than the one they graduated into.

As a concept, UCI just doesn't work. That was even before applications cratered. Any stats you see need to take into account that the school will be adding dozens more students per year, which is going to decrease the employment rate in elite job. Also remember that the gross number of fed clerkships is going to start to wane as professors find that federal judges are not going to want to hold a spot open for a UCI grad year after year (it's going to be three years before you can apply for clerkships- a lot can happen).

Unfortunately, I think you know the right answer which is to do that thing that the mods decided to autocorrect.

Fair point. You mean Good luck! Follow your dreams! Good luck! Follow your dreams! Good luck! Follow your dreams! Good luck! Follow your dreams! Good luck! Follow your dreams!

I actually think it can use a "You can do anything!"

[BigZuck]

OP- let's cut the bullshit. You seem like not an idiot. You're aware of the costs/probabilities and you know what TLS is going to say.

So, what's going on? What are we doing here? What is actually going on in your head/with your thought process? And why are you consulting TLS?