UF $$$ v. UVA- Non-Trad. URM Forum

[Longtimelurker81]

Good afternoon TLS,

I have been a lurker for a few years, and appreciate the helpful posts found on this site. In that light, I am somewhat informed by similar posts to my own. Though I feel my situation may bring up new issues which warrant the creation of this post. I hope some of you will respond with your thoughtful insights.

I am non-traditional AA female applicant. I live within a couple of hours of UF and my projected debt after COL is factored in is $30,000.00. If I attend UVA, I am looking closer to the $210,000.00 mark. I want to live and practice in the south east/mid atlantic. I love D.C. and have family there, but I also have family in Florida and strong Florida ties. I have no interest in going north of D.C.

My goal is to be a federal district court clerk and COA clerk if possible, then transition into working with the EPA or DOJ. Academia is a something I would certainly consider after clerking, realizing it is difficult to obtain in a saturated market. I have a hard science background. I also don't mind the idea of mid/big south law. I am unwilling to sustain 60+ hour work weeks on a long term basis, however.

I am concerned that if I go to UVA and do not break away from the middle of the class, I may be placing myself and my husband/kids in a rough place. It would also require a financially difficult relocation (my husband has a great job he would be giving up to move). However, I think I might find an easier path into attractive clerkships and federal positions/academia going to UVA. At the same time, I don't want to be overwhelmed with debt and forced into big law.

I feel UF will be great if I stay in FL (which is likely), but may make transition to the D.C. market more difficult. I feel I will be foreclosed from pursuing academia one day, and will find an uphill battle competing with Duke/UVA/Emory/ graduates branching out to Florida when I am trying to obtain a clerkship. However, if I am middle of the pack at UF, there is less of a downside. We can do a minimal relocation for me to attend and my husband can keep his job.

This is my second application cycle, I do not see my numbers improving to the point where I could attend UVA/Duke for with $+.

Thank you for the thoughtful consideration and advice and please forgive any typos .

[daleearnhardt123]

AA Female out of UVA, with a hard sciences degree, is basically a cant-miss for biglaw. You shouldn't feel like you have to "break away" from the middle.

ON the other hand, if you want a federal clerkship and a cushy job with a federal regulatory agency, you will have to do quite well. It's also difficult to service that debt without setting foot in biglaw for at least a little while. UVA certainly gives you the best chance at what look to be your goals, but you shouldn't be going to law school expecting them to happen.

[Nucky]

Given your background UVA is the easy choice. Congrats!

EDIT: If you're not willing to do Biglaw then taking out that kind of debt makes no sense. You have to figure out what you really want to do, and what you're willing to do.

Both are great options. Best of luck with your decision.

[rwhyAn]

Good afternoon TLS,

I have been a lurker for a few years, and appreciate the helpful posts found on this site. In that light, I am somewhat informed by similar posts to my own. Though I feel my situation may bring up new issues which warrant the creation of this post. I hope some of you will respond with your thoughtful insights.

I am non-traditional AA female applicant. I live within a couple of hours of UF and my projected debt after COL is factored in is $30,000.00. If I attend UVA, I am looking closer to the $210,000.00 mark. I want to live and practice in the south east/mid atlantic. I love D.C. and have family there, but I also have family in Florida and strong Florida ties. I have no interest in going north of D.C.

My goal is to be a federal district court clerk and COA clerk if possible, then transition into working with the EPA or DOJ. Academia is a something I would certainly consider after clerking, realizing it is difficult to obtain in a saturated market. I have a hard science background. I also don't mind the idea of mid/big south law. I am unwilling to sustain 60+ hour work weeks on a long term basis, however.

I am concerned that if I go to UVA and do not break away from the middle of the class, I may be placing myself and my husband/kids in a rough place. It would also require a financially difficult relocation (my husband has a great job he would be giving up to move). However, I think I might find an easier path into attractive clerkships and federal positions/academia going to UVA. At the same time, I don't want to be overwhelmed with debt and forced into big law.

I feel UF will be great if I stay in FL (which is likely), but may make transition to the D.C. market more difficult. I feel I will be foreclosed from pursuing academia one day, and will find an uphill battle competing with Duke/UVA/Emory/ graduates branching out to Florida when I am trying to obtain a clerkship. However, if I am middle of the pack at UF, there is less of a downside. We can do a minimal relocation for me to attend and my husband can keep his job.

This is my second application cycle, I do not see my numbers improving to the point where I could attend UVA/Duke for with $+.

Thank you for the thoughtful consideration and advice and please forgive any typos .

In my opinion, UVA would be a terribly irresponsible choice for the reasons I have highlighted in red from your original post. To pay off $210k with interest, which would be north of $400k total repayment, you would need big law, and it would require you to work awful hours, which you're not willing to do. Second, you have a spouse and kids. It would be very unfair and selfish to make your spouse give up his good job not knowing if he can find a better or similar job when you move. Third, you might be jeopardizing your children's future by taking out such debt. I think there are plenty of situations where UVA makes sense, but yours isn't one of them.

[Nucky]

Good afternoon TLS,

I have been a lurker for a few years, and appreciate the helpful posts found on this site. In that light, I am somewhat informed by similar posts to my own. Though I feel my situation may bring up new issues which warrant the creation of this post. I hope some of you will respond with your thoughtful insights.

I am non-traditional AA female applicant. I live within a couple of hours of UF and my projected debt after COL is factored in is $30,000.00. If I attend UVA, I am looking closer to the $210,000.00 mark. I want to live and practice in the south east/mid atlantic. I love D.C. and have family there, but I also have family in Florida and strong Florida ties. I have no interest in going north of D.C.

My goal is to be a federal district court clerk and COA clerk if possible, then transition into working with the EPA or DOJ. Academia is a something I would certainly consider after clerking, realizing it is difficult to obtain in a saturated market. I have a hard science background. I also don't mind the idea of mid/big south law. I am unwilling to sustain 60+ hour work weeks on a long term basis, however.

I am concerned that if I go to UVA and do not break away from the middle of the class, I may be placing myself and my husband/kids in a rough place. It would also require a financially difficult relocation (my husband has a great job he would be giving up to move). However, I think I might find an easier path into attractive clerkships and federal positions/academia going to UVA. At the same time, I don't want to be overwhelmed with debt and forced into big law.

I feel UF will be great if I stay in FL (which is likely), but may make transition to the D.C. market more difficult. I feel I will be foreclosed from pursuing academia one day, and will find an uphill battle competing with Duke/UVA/Emory/ graduates branching out to Florida when I am trying to obtain a clerkship. However, if I am middle of the pack at UF, there is less of a downside. We can do a minimal relocation for me to attend and my husband can keep his job.

This is my second application cycle, I do not see my numbers improving to the point where I could attend UVA/Duke for with $+.

Thank you for the thoughtful consideration and advice and please forgive any typos .

In my opinion, UVA would be a terribly irresponsible choice for the reasons I have highlighted in red from your original post. To pay off $210k with interest, which would be north of $400k total repayment, you would need big law, and it would require you to work awful hours, which you're not willing to do. Second, you have a spouse and kids. It would be very unfair and selfish to make your spouse give up his good job not knowing if he can find a better or similar job when you move. Third, you might be jeopardizing your children's future by taking out such debt. I think there are plenty of situations where UVA makes sense, but yours isn't one of them.

I admittedly skimmed through your post. I agree with this.

[Longtimelurker81]

Good afternoon TLS,

I have been a lurker for a few years, and appreciate the helpful posts found on this site. In that light, I am somewhat informed by similar posts to my own. Though I feel my situation may bring up new issues which warrant the creation of this post. I hope some of you will respond with your thoughtful insights.

I am non-traditional AA female applicant. I live within a couple of hours of UF and my projected debt after COL is factored in is $30,000.00. If I attend UVA, I am looking closer to the $210,000.00 mark. I want to live and practice in the south east/mid atlantic. I love D.C. and have family there, but I also have family in Florida and strong Florida ties. I have no interest in going north of D.C.

My goal is to be a federal district court clerk and COA clerk if possible, then transition into working with the EPA or DOJ. Academia is a something I would certainly consider after clerking, realizing it is difficult to obtain in a saturated market. I have a hard science background. I also don't mind the idea of mid/big south law. I am unwilling to sustain 60+ hour work weeks on a long term basis, however.

I am concerned that if I go to UVA and do not break away from the middle of the class, I may be placing myself and my husband/kids in a rough place. It would also require a financially difficult relocation (my husband has a great job he would be giving up to move). However, I think I might find an easier path into attractive clerkships and federal positions/academia going to UVA. At the same time, I don't want to be overwhelmed with debt and forced into big law.

I feel UF will be great if I stay in FL (which is likely), but may make transition to the D.C. market more difficult. I feel I will be foreclosed from pursuing academia one day, and will find an uphill battle competing with Duke/UVA/Emory/ graduates branching out to Florida when I am trying to obtain a clerkship. However, if I am middle of the pack at UF, there is less of a downside. We can do a minimal relocation for me to attend and my husband can keep his job.

This is my second application cycle, I do not see my numbers improving to the point where I could attend UVA/Duke for with $+.

Thank you for the thoughtful consideration and advice and please forgive any typos .

In my opinion, UVA would be a terribly irresponsible choice for the reasons I have highlighted in red from your original post. To pay off $210k with interest, which would be north of $400k total repayment, you would need big law, and it would require you to work awful hours, which you're not willing to do. Second, you have a spouse and kids. It would be very unfair and selfish to make your spouse give up his good job not knowing if he can find a better or similar job when you move. Third, you might be jeopardizing your children's future by taking out such debt. I think there are plenty of situations where UVA makes sense, but yours isn't one of them.

Thank you for your response (and the above posters as well). Your points are well received. My husband is on board and supportive either way- I made similar sacrifices for him in the past. Still, you are right on point with his job mobility. He is well established in FL and has nothing to go on in Charlottesville. We could be losing more money by going to UVA due to his possible loss of income making UVA costlier.

[Nucky]

Good afternoon TLS,

I have been a lurker for a few years, and appreciate the helpful posts found on this site. In that light, I am somewhat informed by similar posts to my own. Though I feel my situation may bring up new issues which warrant the creation of this post. I hope some of you will respond with your thoughtful insights.

I am non-traditional AA female applicant. I live within a couple of hours of UF and my projected debt after COL is factored in is $30,000.00. If I attend UVA, I am looking closer to the $210,000.00 mark. I want to live and practice in the south east/mid atlantic. I love D.C. and have family there, but I also have family in Florida and strong Florida ties. I have no interest in going north of D.C.

My goal is to be a federal district court clerk and COA clerk if possible, then transition into working with the EPA or DOJ. Academia is a something I would certainly consider after clerking, realizing it is difficult to obtain in a saturated market. I have a hard science background. I also don't mind the idea of mid/big south law. I am unwilling to sustain 60+ hour work weeks on a long term basis, however.

I am concerned that if I go to UVA and do not break away from the middle of the class, I may be placing myself and my husband/kids in a rough place. It would also require a financially difficult relocation (my husband has a great job he would be giving up to move). However, I think I might find an easier path into attractive clerkships and federal positions/academia going to UVA. At the same time, I don't want to be overwhelmed with debt and forced into big law.

I feel UF will be great if I stay in FL (which is likely), but may make transition to the D.C. market more difficult. I feel I will be foreclosed from pursuing academia one day, and will find an uphill battle competing with Duke/UVA/Emory/ graduates branching out to Florida when I am trying to obtain a clerkship. However, if I am middle of the pack at UF, there is less of a downside. We can do a minimal relocation for me to attend and my husband can keep his job.

This is my second application cycle, I do not see my numbers improving to the point where I could attend UVA/Duke for with $+.

Thank you for the thoughtful consideration and advice and please forgive any typos .

In my opinion, UVA would be a terribly irresponsible choice for the reasons I have highlighted in red from your original post. To pay off $210k with interest, which would be north of $400k total repayment, you would need big law, and it would require you to work awful hours, which you're not willing to do. Second, you have a spouse and kids. It would be very unfair and selfish to make your spouse give up his good job not knowing if he can find a better or similar job when you move. Third, you might be jeopardizing your children's future by taking out such debt. I think there are plenty of situations where UVA makes sense, but yours isn't one of them.

Thank you for your response (and the above posters as well). Your points are well received. My husband is is on board and supportive either way- I made similar sacrifices for him in the past. Still, you are right on point with his job mobility. He is well established in FL and has nothing to go on in Charlottesville. We could be losing more money by going to UVA due to his possible loss of income making UVA costlier.

If you don't want Biglaw there is really no reason to go UVA over Florida, especially with those loans, unless you REALLY want to live in that part of the country. If you're happy in Florida go to UF and continue to be so without uprooting everyone.

I'll likely be at UF in the Fall and will be at ASD in two weeks. Hope to see you!

[Otunga]

UF looks to be the prudent choice here OP. You simply can't accept that amount of debt without wanting to pursue biglaw. Considering you have a family that seems to be in a stable financial place in FL, that's just additional reason to avoid the massive debt. Granted, going to UF decreases the opportunities you'll have for federal work, but if you think you'd be content with something in the FL government, then that should give you confidence in U of F.

[Nucky]

FWIW, UF's 2012 LST numbers are scary. But go to UF's website and check out their 2013 numbers. MUCH better. The legal market is getting better. Do well at UF and you'll have options.

[PrideandGlory1776]

UVA far and away - enjoy Charlottesville!

[Nucky]

UVA far and away - enjoy Charlottesville!

I think you made the same mistake that I did. Read OP's situation over again.

[Jchance]

My goal is to be a federal district court clerk and COA clerk if possible, then transition into working with the EPA or DOJ. Academia is a something I would certainly consider after clerking, realizing it is difficult to obtain in a saturated market.

How are you going to achieve these goals from UF? U might have a shot at UVA but I wouldn't even dream on it at UF.

I am unwilling to sustain 60+ hour work weeks on a long term basis, however.

At the same time, I don't want to be overwhelmed with debt and forced into big law.

Sounds like BigLaw is a no go. If u choose UVA, how are you going to handle the debt?

Conclusion: the first goal calls for UVA, the second scenario calls for UF, which one do u value more? Thats something u gotta figure out for urself.

[Longtimelurker81]

UF looks to be the prudent choice here OP. You simply can't accept that amount of debt without wanting to pursue biglaw. Considering you have a family that seems to be in a stable financial place in FL, that's just additional reason to avoid the massive debt. Granted, going to UF decreases the opportunities you'll have for federal work, but if you think you'd be content with something in the FL government, then that should give you confidence in U of F.

I'm not sure why (even outside of pay), but in theory state government work seems less appealing than federal work.

Nucky, there does seem to be a marked improvement between '12 to '13. Thank you for pointing that out.

[TheSpanishMain]

It just depends on what you value more: federal work or a good work-life balance. I totally get where you're coming from as far as not wanting to work the insane Big Law hours. If you had that level of debt, though, you'd really have no choice. Personally, if I were you, I'd go to UF. You probably won't get federal work, but you'll at least have the freedom of being able to look at non-Big Law options that provide a saner workload.

[Nucky]

UF looks to be the prudent choice here OP. You simply can't accept that amount of debt without wanting to pursue biglaw. Considering you have a family that seems to be in a stable financial place in FL, that's just additional reason to avoid the massive debt. Granted, going to UF decreases the opportunities you'll have for federal work, but if you think you'd be content with something in the FL government, then that should give you confidence in U of F.

I'm not sure why (even outside of pay), but in theory state government work seems less appealing than federal work.

Nucky, there does seem to be a marked improvement between '12 to '13. Thank you for pointing that out.

Longtimelurker, it's really across the board. Which is good. LST hasn't updated yet but I honestly can't think of a single law school who hasn't markedly improved in their new numbers. Granted, I definitely haven't seen them all. I'm sure there are exceptions. But most law schools seem to be doing better in their placement. Thankfully, for both OP and I, UF is one of them.