Goal: big law Choices: USC vs. Held at Cornell/Northwestern Forum

[instride91]

So as of now, here are my choices:

USC w/ $60K scholarship offer (already had them increase from $45K, but I think I can get it up more)

Reserve at Cornell
Held at Northwestern

Still waiting to hear back from:
UCLA
Vandy
WUSTL
NYU (auto-ding)

Numbers: 3.4/167

Goal: My goal is to go into big law either in New York or California.

Other things to consider: Preferably, I'd like to avoid drowning in debt, but at the same time working in big law is a dream for me. I've also already taken the LSAT 3 times, so I can't retake it for a while.

I think I have a good chance at getting into Cornell (I would prefer Cornell over Northwestern), but I'm terrified of having to pay sticker. Maybe I could get a small scholarship? Or perhaps leverage Northwestern against Cornell if those both work out. Really though my top two choices are USC and Cornell. I'm interested in USC, but I know that I would have a better chance at big law if I went to Cornell. I also hate the fact that I probably won't hear back from Cornell until June or July. I'd really like to start looking for an apartment/house.

What are the odds of getting a big law job out of USC? Cornell? Is big law in California significantly different from New York?

[Tuxedo]

Please see the stick at the top of the forum and give us an idea of what else might factor into this decision.

Check USC's numbers for hiring at Biglaw firms, but it might be worth waiting and a retake.

Do you have any significant work experience? Would it be worth waiting to get some of that while you prep for better LSAT numbers?

[instride91]

Here is some more information:

How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings?
I will be financing these loans myself as far as I know. My family might help me out a little, but for the most part, I plan on paying off these loans myself.

Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)?
I am from San Jose, CA, although I was born in New York. I have family ties to New York, San Jose, and Los Angeles. I'd prefer to work in New York, but I'd also be willing to work in Los Angeles.

I am coming directly out of undergrad, so I don't exactly have a fallback job lined up for me. I had pretty much planned on going to law school next year.

[rebexness]

Did you apply late this year? When did/do you graduate?

You may want to find a job and apply Day 1 next year.

[instride91]

Did you apply late this year? When did/do you graduate?

You may want to find a job and apply Day 1 next year.

I applied January 6th I believe. I graduate May 10th or something like that.

[rebexness]

I applied January I believe. I graduate May

Is your GPA going to go up at all?

[instride91]

I applied January I believe. I graduate May

Is your GPA going to go up at all?

It might go up to a 3.45, but I doubt there will be a significant change.

Also, the next time I can take the LSAT is June 2015...

[instride91]

Any other input? How hard would it be to repay full tuition loans from Cornell/Northwestern with big law?

[Winston1984]

Any other input? How hard would it be to repay full tuition loans from Cornell/Northwestern with big law?

Pretty tough. Are you okay with not getting biglaw, or would you rather do something else with your life than work as a lawyer in a small firm?

[instride91]

Any other input? How hard would it be to repay full tuition loans from Cornell/Northwestern with big law?

Pretty tough. Are you okay with not getting biglaw, or would you rather do something else with your life than work as a lawyer in a small firm?

I'd rather not go to law school than work at a small firm. I don't mind working my way up to the top, but if I have no chance of it, then there's not much point in my opinion. However, it looks like USC still sends some students into big law.

I plan on working my ass off during 1L to secure a summer Associate position. That could put a dent in my loans. Would USC or Cornell help my chances with this?

[instride91]

Also, I took the lsat 3 times:
June: 160
October: 167
December: 167

For the December test, I expected to score much higher. I was averaging a 173 and had hit 180 at one point. Unfortunately I got sick the week before the test and didnt do as well as I could have.

[Winston1984]

Any other input? How hard would it be to repay full tuition loans from Cornell/Northwestern with big law?

Pretty tough. Are you okay with not getting biglaw, or would you rather do something else with your life than work as a lawyer in a small firm?

I'd rather not go to law school than work at a small firm. I don't mind working my way up to the top, but if I have no chance of it, then there's not much point in my opinion. However, it looks like USC still sends some students into big law.

I plan on working my ass off during 1L to secure a summer Associate position. That could put a dent in my loans. Would USC or Cornell help my chances with this?

It's definitely possible to get biglaw out of USC, but the chances aren't nearly good enough to go in with the biglaw or bust mentality. Really I think you have a few options. You can go to USC and if you aren't top third, drop out after 1L. Go to Cornell and get biglaw but be in huge debt. Or pick another career.

[instride91]

I mean, it wouldn't be impossible to be top 1/3rd at USC. My goal is to be top 10% wherever I go. I plan on doing summer prep, living alone so I can focus, and having 2Ls and 3Ls help tutor me.

I got the 167 while living in a fraternity house, which I can tell you was beyond difficult. Frankly, if I can do that, I believe I can do much more while living alone.

[californiauser]

I wouldn't pay that much for USC, but it's not a terrible option if you're OK with the possibility of making 40k in southern California if -- and you likely will -- miss the big law train.

edit: your chances at big law are probably worse than the published numbers since you're k-jd

[justonemoregame]

Do you even know how much debt you will have at graduation?

[instride91]

Debt from undergrad? I'll have just under $20k, but I think I could convince my parents to pay that off if I went to Cornell.

[y2zipper]

In your shoes I'd wait and retake. USC is about 51,000 a year and the 60k offer basically covers the cost of living that isn't included in that number. It's roughly 150k plus interest and increases per year. Your better off doing Cornell for sticker at that point.

Go find a job, retake for your 173 and enjoy less debt.

[BigZuck]

I mean, it wouldn't be impossible to be top 1/3rd at USC. My goal is to be top 10% wherever I go. I plan on doing summer prep, living alone so I can focus, and having 2Ls and 3Ls help tutor me.

I got the 167 while living in a fraternity house, which I can tell you was beyond difficult. Frankly, if I can do that, I believe I can do much more while living alone.

I think you absolutely should try your damnedest to be top 1%. But you need to realize the folly of all this. Summer prep almost certainly won't help, living alone could lead to soul crushing isolation/sadness, and all this striving could really lead to burnout. Also keep in mind that nothing you have accomplished academically points to top 10% in a pool of really smart people. If you go to USC, you will actually be less accomplished than most of your peers.

I'm not trying to put you down, I get that we all think we're special and I think you should work hard, just make sure you work smart/are realistic.

I think this is a tough decision. It's hard for splitters. I don't know how much a retake would help you, I would do some research on how 173s and your GPA do compared to 167s. You might be able to snag more schools but maybe not more money. Although I guess if I had to go into a lot of debt I would rather do it at Columbia/NYU than Cornell so maybe that's a consideration.

I don't think I have ever advised this but what about going to USC for one semester and dropping out if you don't end up at least top 1/3? Of course you would be like 25K in the hole so that sounds pretty sucky too.

Given your openness to NY I might agree with the notion that its better to dig yourself into an even bigger financial hole at Cornell than taking the modest money at USC.

[instride91]

I mean, it wouldn't be impossible to be top 1/3rd at USC. My goal is to be top 10% wherever I go. I plan on doing summer prep, living alone so I can focus, and having 2Ls and 3Ls help tutor me.

I got the 167 while living in a fraternity house, which I can tell you was beyond difficult. Frankly, if I can do that, I believe I can do much more while living alone.

I think you absolutely should try your damnedest to be top 1%. But you need to realize the folly of all this. Summer prep almost certainly won't help, living alone could lead to soul crushing isolation/sadness, and all this striving could really lead to burnout. Also keep in mind that nothing you have accomplished academically points to top 10% in a pool of really smart people. If you go to USC, you will actually be less accomplished than most of your peers.

I'm not trying to put you down, I get that we all think we're special and I think you should work hard, just make sure you work smart/are realistic.

I think this is a tough decision. It's hard for splitters. I don't know how much a retake would help you, I would do some research on how 173s and your GPA do compared to 167s. You might be able to snag more schools but maybe not more money. Although I guess if I had to go into a lot of debt I would rather do it at Columbia/NYU than Cornell so maybe that's a consideration.

I don't think I have ever advised this but what about going to USC for one semester and dropping out if you don't end up at least top 1/3? Of course you would be like 25K in the hole so that sounds pretty sucky too.

Given your openness to NY I might agree with the notion that its better to dig yourself into an even bigger financial hole at Cornell than taking the modest money at USC.

I think this is actually the best advice I've gotten. I also agree that I have no real basis for showing that I'm strong academically and there's no real point in arguing that I am. Be that as it may, I spent almost my entire undergrad in a fraternity, did a lot of partying, and still ended up with a BS in Economics, which requires extra classes on top of the BA, and minors in Philosophy and English, while working 20 hours a week. I also really hope I don't get depressed from living alone, but I'm pretty good at making new friends and meeting new people, so I'm not too worried.

I think my best course of action is to do a mix of your advice: I'll hope that I somehow get off Cornell's reserve (or Northwestern), go there for a semester or year and if I'm not in the top 1/3rd, drop out and/or change my career goals.

If I somehow make it into big law, then I guess I'm gonna be living REAL frugally for 10 years, but hey, I'd rather take a shot at a dream than not even try.

[Big Dog]

Given northwestern's preference for work experience, your chances of getting off the WL are slim. I wound't recommend Cornell or NULS at sticker.

If I were you, I'd retake and add Fordham to the mix, if you really want NYC.

[instride91]

Given northwestern's preference for work experience, your chances of getting off the WL are slim. I wound't recommend Cornell or NULS at sticker.

If I were you, I'd retake and add Fordham to the mix, if you really want NYC.

Fordham actually WL/ed me, which I found odd. Also, I'm only on "held" status for Northwestern, so they do have to make a decision.

[BigZuck]

I mean, it wouldn't be impossible to be top 1/3rd at USC. My goal is to be top 10% wherever I go. I plan on doing summer prep, living alone so I can focus, and having 2Ls and 3Ls help tutor me.

I got the 167 while living in a fraternity house, which I can tell you was beyond difficult. Frankly, if I can do that, I believe I can do much more while living alone.

I think you absolutely should try your damnedest to be top 1%. But you need to realize the folly of all this. Summer prep almost certainly won't help, living alone could lead to soul crushing isolation/sadness, and all this striving could really lead to burnout. Also keep in mind that nothing you have accomplished academically points to top 10% in a pool of really smart people. If you go to USC, you will actually be less accomplished than most of your peers.

I'm not trying to put you down, I get that we all think we're special and I think you should work hard, just make sure you work smart/are realistic.

I think this is a tough decision. It's hard for splitters. I don't know how much a retake would help you, I would do some research on how 173s and your GPA do compared to 167s. You might be able to snag more schools but maybe not more money. Although I guess if I had to go into a lot of debt I would rather do it at Columbia/NYU than Cornell so maybe that's a consideration.

I don't think I have ever advised this but what about going to USC for one semester and dropping out if you don't end up at least top 1/3? Of course you would be like 25K in the hole so that sounds pretty sucky too.

Given your openness to NY I might agree with the notion that its better to dig yourself into an even bigger financial hole at Cornell than taking the modest money at USC.

I think this is actually the best advice I've gotten. I also agree that I have no real basis for showing that I'm strong academically and there's no real point in arguing that I am. Be that as it may, I spent almost my entire undergrad in a fraternity, did a lot of partying, and still ended up with a BS in Economics, which requires extra classes on top of the BA, and minors in Philosophy and English, while working 20 hours a week. I also really hope I don't get depressed from living alone, but I'm pretty good at making new friends and meeting new people, so I'm not too worried.

I think my best course of action is to do a mix of your advice: I'll hope that I somehow get off Cornell's reserve (or Northwestern), go there for a semester or year and if I'm not in the top 1/3rd, drop out and/or change my career goals.

If I somehow make it into big law, then I guess I'm gonna be living REAL frugally for 10 years, but hey, I'd rather take a shot at a dream than not even try.

Yeah, I'm sure you're a smart dude, just saying that you'll be swimming in a sea of smart dudes/dudettes and some will sink, some will swim, some will get devoured by sharks. Definitely put in the work, just make peace with the fact that it might not be sufficient. Law school grades can be frustratingly arbitrary at times.

I was mainly speaking from my own experience. I go to a school very equivalent to USC, and I honestly was surprised how smart people are and how on top of their stuff they are. And really the main thing that concerned me was how hard you planned on grinding. I know there are people on this site who have done that with good results but I honestly never could. I don't think I have a particularly bad work ethic, I guess maybe I'm just old and more prone to burning out. Anyway like I said working smart is the key, IMO. In my limited experience law school isn't all that hard and you don't need to burn the candle at both ends, just gotta know when to put in the hours and how to put in the hours. Pure grinding for grinding's sake seems to grind people down more often that not from what I've seen.

Anyway, if you went to Cornell I think middle of the pack should be sufficient for big law (again, assuming you approached OCI in a smart way and bid savvily). It is a metric butt-ton of debt though, so when and if that moment comes you'll have to do some soul-searching and figure out if you're ok with that. From what I understand in NYC your take home after taxes would be about 100K and if you're aggressively paying off loans (say, 50K a year or more) you won't exactly be living the high life. And you would have to stay in big law for 5 years or more to pay it off which is unlikely. But again, that's a personal choice, only you know what you're comfortable with/want out of a career.

[sobrickay]

Obviously, no experience with Biglaw hiring, but the data say Cornell/NU are your best bet for getting a job in Biglaw. But you aren't guaranteed a job that could service sticker debt from either of those schools. USC is a real toss-up, and you will still be carrying loads of debt. If you do land the job you want out of NU/Cornell, the debt will still be pretty heavy as you try to pay it off in the <5 years most people last in Biglaw. There is no obvious/pain-free decision here because the costs are so high.

I guess the best advice I can offer is to remember you don't HAVE to go to law school next fall. Law school will always be there (well, at least the ones you are considering). Would it be more worth your time to sit a couple years out and work as a paralegal and retake for the 170+ so you don't have to live frugally the following ten to pay off your law school debt? That's definitely worth consideration in my opinion. I know it probably wasn't part of your plan, but I think that postponing in your position would be a very rational decision. Especially if you were testing in that high range.

I speak a little from experience. I was in a similar situation last cycle and felt too forced into the decision/stressed about the debt, so I took a year off and I am really glad I did (not only because I retook and got into better schools, but also because I feel more rejuvenated for school next September and more sure of my decision). Just my two cents. Best of luck!