Law schools with highest average debt Forum

[worldtraveler]

From Above the Law:

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Thomas Jefferson School of Law: $180,665 (92% of grads have debt)
New York Law School: $164,739 (84% of grads have debt)
American University (Washington): $158,636 (88% of grads have debt)
California Western School of Law: $157,748 (90% of grads have debt)
Northwestern University: $155,777 (78% of grads have debt)
Whittier College: $154,267 (92% of grads have debt)
University of Chicago: $153,753 (85% of grads have debt)
Florida Coastal School of Law: $150,360 (91% of grads have debt)
St. Thomas University: $150,166 (91% of grads have debt)
University of Miami: $148,513 (79% of grads have debt)



This list is just plain scary.

[jenesaislaw]

Numbers do not include the interest that those loan distributions pick up over 3+ years. Keep that in mind when looking at these numbers -- they're understated.

[Hipster but Athletic]

Numbers do not include the interest that those loan distributions pick up over 3+ years. Keep that in mind when looking at these numbers -- they're understated.

Except the loans are not that expensive, and there's inflation and stuff.

[worldtraveler]

Numbers do not include the interest that those loan distributions pick up over 3+ years. Keep that in mind when looking at these numbers -- they're understated.

I'm assuming it also doesn't include bar loans and bar expenses. Yikes.

[TheSpanishMain]

I feel like I got some flyer in the mail from Thomas Jefferson that showed what scholarships they would give for certain GPA/LSAT combos. It was something like 155+ gets a full ride. They must be admitting TONS of people with 140s LSAT scores.

[jenesaislaw]

Numbers do not include the interest that those loan distributions pick up over 3+ years. Keep that in mind when looking at these numbers -- they're understated.

Except the loans are not that expensive, and there's inflation and stuff.

You don't think a weighted interest north of 7.5% is expensive? That's far exceeding inflation.

[jenesaislaw]

Numbers do not include the interest that those loan distributions pick up over 3+ years. Keep that in mind when looking at these numbers -- they're understated.

I'm assuming it also doesn't include bar loans and bar expenses. Yikes.

Right. These are federal loan distributions. Loans for bar expenses are from private lenders. One school I know of thinks you can use federal loans for bar expenses, but I've yet to be convinced they're right. (People get private loans typically even if federal is possible.)

[worldtraveler]

Numbers do not include the interest that those loan distributions pick up over 3+ years. Keep that in mind when looking at these numbers -- they're understated.

I'm assuming it also doesn't include bar loans and bar expenses. Yikes.

Right. These are federal loan distributions. Loans for bar expenses are from private lenders. One school I know of thinks you can use federal loans for bar expenses, but I've yet to be convinced they're right. (People get private loans typically even if federal is possible.)

I don't know if this is typical, but Berkeley lets you petition to get more federal loans to cover expenses to sign up for the bar (which in CA is like $1500) but not for the course or your living expenses over the summer.

[Nucky]

I would really like to meet these TJLS, Florida Gulf Coast, etc. students and ask them what the hell they're thinking.

I would also like to meet the adcomms and admins of these schools and ask them how they sleep at night and look at themselves in the mirror in the morning.

EDIT: I should also toss in the ABA and perhaps even government, because I would like to ask them why they allow these borderline criminal schools to stay open?

[d cooper]

I feel like I got some flyer in the mail from Thomas Jefferson that showed what scholarships they would give for certain GPA/LSAT combos. It was something like 155+ gets a full ride. They must be admitting TONS of people with 140s LSAT scores.

Also a large portion of admitted 155+ applicants will lose their scholarships because of the stipulations.

[jenesaislaw]

I don't know if this is typical, but Berkeley lets you petition to get more federal loans to cover expenses to sign up for the bar (which in CA is like $1500) but not for the course or your living expenses over the summer.

So that's two schools. The other is Utah. It's been a while since I read the actual law, but it was anything but clear at that point and I couldn't find support anywhere of the interpretation.

ETA: If Berkeley lets students do that, then I am fairly certain these numbers include that $1500 for whichever students do that.

[lecsa]

Every year NU is in the top 10. Why is that?

[aboutmydaylight]

Now multiply these numbers by (1.025)^4 to figure out what they'll likely be when current 0Ls graduate. Don't forget loan fees, accumulated interest, and a likely rise in Stafford/Grad Plus interest rates.

[lecsa]

Here are the corresponding employment rates from ATL. (Keep in mind this list includes school-funded, so the real rates are lower.):

Let’s take a look at some employment statistics to see if all of that debt is really worth it. All employment data, including those working as solo practitioners, is from the class of 2013, unless otherwise noted.

Thomas Jefferson School of Law: 29.0% employed in full-time, long-term legal jobs
New York Law School: 44.5% employed in full-time, long-term legal jobs
American University (Washington): 45.6% employed in full-time, long-term legal jobs
California Western School of Law: 43.8% employed in full-time, long-term legal jobs in 2012
Northwestern University: 79.2% employed in full-time, long-term legal jobs
Whittier College: 34.7% employed in full-time, long-term legal jobs in 2012
University of Chicago: 92.6% employed in full-time, long-term legal jobs
Florida Coastal School of Law: 30.8% employed in full-time, long-term legal jobs
St. Thomas University: 47.8% employed in full-time, long-term legal jobs
University of Miami: 59.2% employed in full-time, long-term legal jobs in 2012

[aboutmydaylight]

Numbers do not include the interest that those loan distributions pick up over 3+ years. Keep that in mind when looking at these numbers -- they're understated.

Do you have a source for that?

[ManoftheHour]

Every year NU is in the top 10. Why is that?

I think it has one of the highest (if not highest) tuition of the T-14. Also, high COL in Chicago.

[jenesaislaw]

Numbers do not include the interest that those loan distributions pick up over 3+ years. Keep that in mind when looking at these numbers -- they're understated.

Do you have a source for that?

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[lecsa]

Every year NU is in the top 10. Why is that?

I think it has one of the highest (if not highest) tuition of the T-14. Also, high COL in Chicago.

There's higher COL in NYC but CLS and NYU aren't on the list. Also I thought Boalt had higher tuition but it's not in the list.

Maybe NU gives out less aid? I thought they gave aid a lot of aid though.

[cotiger]

Every year NU is in the top 10. Why is that?

I think it has one of the highest (if not highest) tuition of the T-14. Also, high COL in Chicago.

There's higher COL in NYC but CLS and NYU aren't on the list. Also I thought Boalt had higher tuition but it's not in the list.

Maybe NU gives out less aid? I thought they gave aid a lot of aid though.

They actually give aid to only 37.9% of their class, one of the lowest rates in the T14. They just are very liberal with high numbers applicants, which TLS has a lot of. Their propensity for super-splitters (read: people who likely didn't get into any other T14) means a lot of willing sticker payers.

eta: I'm surprised CLS isn't on there, though. Second highest COA, low percentage of students getting grants (45.7%), and by far the lowest median grant value of those they do give money to.

[aboutmydaylight]

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... t-rankings

The whole list is there by the way.

Notables:

NYU: $147,685
Georgetown: $145,631
Columbia: $141,566
Berkeley: $141,358
UVA: $132,601
Penn: $130,855
Duke: $124,549
Harvard: $123,673
Michigan: $117,675
Yale: $111,961
Stanford: $108,391


Cornell not on the list btw?

Also, this is for the class of 2013. For 2017 it'll likely be 1.025^4 more expensive, or ~10% more. And if these are before interest, then its not real debt at graduation.

[aboutmydaylight]

Numbers do not include the interest that those loan distributions pick up over 3+ years. Keep that in mind when looking at these numbers -- they're understated.

Do you have a source for that?

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Maybe I'm missing something but is that the survey USNWR uses to calculate these figures?

[09042014]

Every year NU is in the top 10. Why is that?

I think it has one of the highest (if not highest) tuition of the T-14. Also, high COL in Chicago.

There's higher COL in NYC but CLS and NYU aren't on the list. Also I thought Boalt had higher tuition but it's not in the list.

Maybe NU gives out less aid? I thought they gave aid a lot of aid though.

They actually give aid to only 37.9% of their class, one of the lowest rates in the T14. They just are very liberal with high numbers applicants, which TLS has a lot of. Their propensity for super-splitters (read: people who likely didn't get into any other T14) means a lot of willing sticker payers.

eta: I'm surprised CLS isn't on there, though. Second highest COA, low percentage of students getting grants (45.7%), and by far the lowest median grant value of those they do give money to.

It could be that trust fund babies are more likely to go to NYC for law school.

[jenesaislaw]

Numbers do not include the interest that those loan distributions pick up over 3+ years. Keep that in mind when looking at these numbers -- they're understated.

Do you have a source for that?

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Maybe I'm missing something but is that the survey USNWR uses to calculate these figures?

Yes, the U.S. News survey asks for the answer on the ABA Questionnaire.

I only have the 2011 survey in front of me right now, but here is the question from that year:

"What is the average amount borrowed in law school by 2009–2010 J.D. graduates who borrowed at least one educational loan in law school?"

Right before asking this the survey says:

"2010 ABA Questionnaire Reference: Part 4, Section 5, Questions 15 and 17
Please complete the financial aid information table below, noting the following: "

[20141023]

.

[Bildungsroman]

total debt is not a great metric except for the shock value about bad schools. For example, I'd rather be $153k in debt with a UChicago or Northwestern law degree than $53k in debt from a Thomas Jefferson or a Berkeley (haha, just kidding).