CA Biglaw USC/UCLA ($$$) v. Michigan ($) Forum

[BenjarvusGreenEllis]

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[BenjarvusGreenEllis]

Also, does anyone have insight on how median at Michigan would perform in CA?

[yeslekkkk]

Since you're emphasizing an irrational love for CA, my guess is that you would have a hard time in the winter. It seems like USC and UCLA could help you reach your goals just fine.

[El Principe]

Since you're emphasizing an irrational love for CA, my guess is that you would have a hard time in the winter. It seems like USC and UCLA could help you reach your goals just fine.

I don't know how OP's preference of throwing money hand over fist to live in California versus throwing money hand over fist to live in the Northeast constitutes irrationality.

If I has the misfortune of paying that much money to live anywhere, I'd gladly pick the place with sunny weather and beaches over the American tundra.

That being said, I agree with USC/UCLA.

[transferror]

It seems like USC and UCLA could help you reach your goals just fine.

[PrideandGlory1776]

UCLA all the way

[BenjarvusGreenEllis]

Since you're emphasizing an irrational love for CA, my guess is that you would have a hard time in the winter. It seems like USC and UCLA could help you reach your goals just fine.

I am a little soft weather wise but I could tough anything out for three years if it markedly increased my chances.

Since you're emphasizing an irrational love for CA, my guess is that you would have a hard time in the winter. It seems like USC and UCLA could help you reach your goals just fine.

I don't know how OP's preference of throwing money hand over fist to live in California versus throwing money hand over fist to live in the Northeast constitutes irrationality.

If I has the misfortune of paying that much money to live anywhere, I'd gladly pick the place with sunny weather and beaches over the American tundra.

That being said, I agree with USC/UCLA.

I got the quote somewhere else on TLS - I don't think its super irrational, but some do.

I agree that USC/UCLA is probably the play given goals and cost, but I am curious as to whether median at Michigan puts someone in a better position than median at UCLA/USC in the CA market...

[jbagelboy]

Good price for UCLA or USC. Pick your preference and good luck!!

[lecsa]

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[twenty]

If you want CA Biglaw > CA non-biglaw > non-CA biglaw, definitely UCLA/USC.
If you want CA Biglaw > non-CA biglaw > CA non-biglaw, ... probably negotiate Michigan down or else still do UCLA/USC.

[BenjarvusGreenEllis]

UCLA with $$$ is not a bad choice, but keep in mind you most likely will not get biglaw out of there. You'll probably have to work for smaller firms if you want to real estate (which is sort of a dead practice area to begin with). The California legal market is generally in much worse shape than NYC/DC/Chicago, so be sure you're okay with doing whatever small law comes your way.

It doesn't have to be real estate, I just prefer it. My fallback option is working at a small, reasonably successful plaintiff-side firm that I work at currently. Litigation doesn't really interest me but the hours and QOL are really good there.

I understand that there is a bi-modal range of salaries for lawyers but what are the better non Biglaw jobs?

If you want CA Biglaw > CA non-biglaw > non-CA biglaw, definitely UCLA/USC.
If you want CA Biglaw > non-CA biglaw > CA non-biglaw, ... probably negotiate Michigan down or else still do UCLA/USC.

At what cost do you think Michigan becomes worth it for the second option?

[twenty]

I'd be pretty reluctant to go to Michigan for more than 150k COA, but I also have no stomach for the idea of working in biglaw to pay off law school debt. Below 150k, you should be able to pay off law school within a 3 year timeline, which is right around when people bail for biglaw almuni options anyway.

I know people go to T14s at sticker with the expectation they'll work in biglaw for 5-6 years, but spending your 20s trying to get back to the break-even point just doesn't seem like a great way to go.

[BenjarvusGreenEllis]

I'd be pretty reluctant to go to Michigan for more than 150k COA, but I also have no stomach for the idea of working in biglaw to pay off law school debt. Below 150k, you should be able to pay off law school within a 3 year timeline, which is right around when people bail for biglaw almuni options anyway.

I know people go to T14s at sticker with the expectation they'll work in biglaw for 5-6 years, but spending your 20s trying to get back to the break-even point just doesn't seem like a great way to go.

I am really fortunate because my grandparents are leaving me about three times that much as an inheritance so I won't be in debt wherever I go. Although I can technically afford either option without debt I don't want to make a bad investment. If M were to give me a real advantage (median instead of top third) for CA biglaw I would be much more likely to pull the trigger.

(Should have applied to Northwestern)

[twenty]

Yeah, but don't waste your grandparents' money if you don't have to. Spend it on a Ferrari or something instead.

[lecsa]

.

[Jchance]

At what cost do you think Michigan becomes worth it for the second option?

I'd prob do Mich at 120-130k CoA but not at 150-170k

[BenjarvusGreenEllis]

Yeah, but don't waste your grandparents' money if you don't have to. Spend it on a Ferrari or something instead.

haha I would probably go with a condo

I'd be pretty reluctant to go to Michigan for more than 150k COA, but I also have no stomach for the idea of working in biglaw to pay off law school debt. Below 150k, you should be able to pay off law school within a 3 year timeline, which is right around when people bail for biglaw almuni options anyway.

I know people go to T14s at sticker with the expectation they'll work in biglaw for 5-6 years, but spending your 20s trying to get back to the break-even point just doesn't seem like a great way to go.

I am really fortunate because my grandparents are leaving me about three times that much as an inheritance so I won't be in debt wherever I go. Although I can technically afford either option without debt I don't want to make a bad investment. If M were to give me a real advantage (median instead of top third) for CA biglaw I would be much more likely to pull the trigger.

(Should have applied to Northwestern)

I think M will give you an advantage in CA biglaw, but I don't know by how much. I'd say I'd spend around the same as the above poster (150k-170k or so) for all of the T-14 except YHS. I didn't apply to UCLA/USC since I wasn't deadset on a particular market, so I don't know what my cost limit is for those. 90k seems ok if you're deadset on California.

As for better non-biglaw jobs: It depends on what you're looking for. Some prestigious ones are the federal government (DOJ, SEC, Federal Reserve Board, etc.), but most of these are going to be on the East Coast.

At what cost do you think Michigan becomes worth it for the second option?

I'd prob do Mich at 120-130k CoA but not at 150-170k

Thanks for the responses. I'll do my best to get M closer to 130k before I really consider it and do more research into non Biglaw options in CA.

[xJD2017x]

Ask for more money from the LA schools.

[yeslekkkk]

Since you're emphasizing an irrational love for CA, my guess is that you would have a hard time in the winter. It seems like USC and UCLA could help you reach your goals just fine.

I am a little soft weather wise but I could tough anything out for three years if it markedly increased my chances.

Since you're emphasizing an irrational love for CA, my guess is that you would have a hard time in the winter. It seems like USC and UCLA could help you reach your goals just fine.

I don't know how OP's preference of throwing money hand over fist to live in California versus throwing money hand over fist to live in the Northeast constitutes irrationality.

If I has the misfortune of paying that much money to live anywhere, I'd gladly pick the place with sunny weather and beaches over the American tundra.

That being said, I agree with USC/UCLA.

I got the quote somewhere else on TLS - I don't think its super irrational, but some do.

I agree that USC/UCLA is probably the play given goals and cost, but I am curious as to whether median at Michigan puts someone in a better position than median at UCLA/USC in the CA market...

I was just writing what you wrote! l love California. To me, loving California is not irrational. If you love it so much and you have some good options, stay here (in CA).

[LegalReality]

I know a lot of ucla law grads and they all say biglaw odds are no better than 1/3. Even the ones in biglaw admit it was foolish to take the gamble and they would not do it if given another chance. The other 2/3rds of the class has worse opportunities than a typical undergrad. Things are even worse at usc. Even if you don't personally have to pay, why spend 3 years in a school that is more likely to decrease your earning potential.

Michigan is also a terrible option. Most Cali biglaw firms can easily fit their tiny classes with people from Cali schools or hys schools.

Even for free either school is a bad choice. Hys and maybe cal for free are the only ones worth it for your goals.

[CTT]

There are about 30 large California law firms that have made of offers to Michigan students through Michigan's OCI program in recent years. About 10 percent of Michigan grads go to California. Generally speaking, if you have ties to California and you do reasonably well at Michigan (top half), big law in California will be quite available.

[BigZuck]

Late to the party, but does anyone know how much of an edge Michigan has on UCLA/USC for
LA big law? I'm sure it's something but given Michigan's shortcomings I'm doubting its 80K better.

Either way, the OP will have to do pretty solidly well in school to snag LA big law. I would roll with UCLA/USC here.

[californiauser]

You can't go to USC or UCLA and expect to get big law.

If your preference is LA big law > any big law > any legal job go to Michigan

If your preference is LA big law > small/sh*t law in LA go to SC or UCLA

[BenjarvusGreenEllis]

I know a lot of ucla law grads and they all say biglaw odds are no better than 1/3. Even the ones in biglaw admit it was foolish to take the gamble and they would not do it if given another chance. The other 2/3rds of the class has worse opportunities than a typical undergrad. Things are even worse at usc. Even if you don't personally have to pay, why spend 3 years in a school that is more likely to decrease your earning potential.

Michigan is also a terrible option. Most Cali biglaw firms can easily fit their tiny classes with people from Cali schools or hys schools.

Even for free either school is a bad choice. Hys and maybe cal for free are the only ones worth it for your goals.

In all the research I've done there seems to be a lot of truth in this even though it's depressing af.

There are about 30 large California law firms that have made of offers to Michigan students through Michigan's OCI program in recent years. About 10 percent of Michigan grads go to California. Generally speaking, if you have ties to California and you do reasonably well at Michigan (top half), big law in California will be quite available.

And then there are those that believe this... It's hard to tell what's what.

[BenjarvusGreenEllis]

Late to the party, but does anyone know how much of an edge Michigan has on UCLA/USC for
LA big law? I'm sure it's something but given Michigan's shortcomings I'm doubting its 80K better.

Either way, the OP will have to do pretty solidly well in school to snag LA big law. I would roll with UCLA/USC here.

I agree that 80k is too much of a difference but what if it here ~50k different?