Notre Dame or IU Maurer? Forum

[coreaves23]

Notre Dame: $10,000 scholarship
IU Maurer: Full-tuition + $3,000 stipend

From the Midwest and would like to do criminal or civil ligation (sports agency would be my dream, but know that people on TLS think it is a long shot), preferably BigLaw. Would like to then settle down in the Midwest with a family and a job at a mid-size/BigLaw firm.

Visited both schools and got a better "feeling" at Notre Dame (maybe just due to more up-to-date facilities, etc.) Trying to weigh the prestige and "name recognition" factors with having (close to) zero debt.

Important to note: I will have around $12,000 in outside scholarships from local foundations in my community.

Advice on which to choose? Thank you in advance!

[yossarian]

Shot at biglaw from IU is next to nil. Small chance if from Chi/Indy/Louisville/Cinci, network like mad and in top 10%. Shot at ND is better (but still not good), and major risk at that cost. Where (specifically) you want to work plus your ties will determine where biglaw is a possibility. Top 1-3 students have an outside shot at NYC/Chi w/out ties, but its a longshot.

Debt aversion and how you're financing will be factors (ie family at 0% interest v gradplus loans).

Those scholarships don't seem to match up. ND is offering more than that this year for people who would get stipends at IUB.

Retake and sit out for more money at ND.

[Chriz]

Retake.

[coreaves23]

Shot at biglaw from IU is next to nil. Small chance if from Chi/Indy/Louisville/Cinci, network like mad and in top 10%. Shot at ND is better (but still not good), and major risk at that cost. Where (specifically) you want to work plus your ties will determine where biglaw is a possibility. Top 1-3 students have an outside shot at NYC/Chi w/out ties, but its a longshot.

Debt aversion and how you're financing will be factors (ie family at 0% interest v gradplus loans).

Those scholarships don't seem to match up. ND is offering more than that this year for people who would get stipends at IUB.

Retake and sit out for more money at ND.

I appreciate your insight! I know BigLaw is a longshot, but want to give myself the best opportunity to do so. Scholarship discrepancy is due to the fact that I am from Indiana. I was named one of the 5 Dean's Scholars at IU Maurer, so that is the scholarship package for that award. ND scholarship is just from original offer. I would not waste your time with fictitious numbers.

[Nova]

ND at that COA is way too expensive. If you strike out (likely), paying off your loans will be very uncomfortable.

[yossarian]

Wasn't accusing you of lying. Just saying it's weird. With a slightly higher LSAT, I imagine ND would give you more money next year.

Also from IN. My ND offer is much higher. My IUB offer is much lower. I would be tempted to go IUB at that price, but I am also very comfortable with some non-biglaw outcomes.

Also, what NOVA said. You run like a conservative 25% shot at biglaw. From there, a 45% shot at a JD required job but one that would not service $200k in debt. About a 30% shot at doing whatever you're doing now.

http://www.lawschooltransparency.com

You do you. Just things to consider. I'm making a similar decision and it's stressing me out.

[BigZuck]

The lowest ranked law school in the Midwest that I would attend if big law was the goal would be Northwestern.

I would retake until you snag Northwestern at least, OR readjust your career goals.

[coreaves23]

Wasn't accusing you of lying. Just saying it's weird. With a slightly higher LSAT, I imagine ND would give you more money next year.

Also from IN. My ND offer is much higher. My IUB offer is much lower. I would be tempted to go IUB at that price, but I am also very comfortable with some non-biglaw outcomes.

Also, what NOVA said. You run like a conservative 25% shot at biglaw. From there, a 45% shot at a JD required job but one that would not service $200k in debt. About a 30% shot at doing whatever you're doing now.

http://www.lawschooltransparency.com

You do you. Just things to consider. I'm making a similar decision and it's stressing me out.

Hoosier! I am comfortable with non-BigLaw as well. I should have just said litigation at a decent-sized firm. I know the debt will be a lot, that is why I am considering IUB with such a big offer. Thanks for the link--great stuff!

Are you leaning towards IUB or ND right now? Sorry to hear that you are feeling the same stress that I am!

NOVA- I agree it is much too high. I am trying to negotiate with them right now. We will see if it does me any good!

The lowest ranked law school in the Midwest that I would attend if big law was the goal would be Northwestern.

I would retake until you snag Northwestern at least, OR readjust your career goals.

Scratch the BigLaw idea. Which do you think would be the best for just any decent-sized firm?

[BigZuck]

I wouldn't go to either without a burning desire to (or at least complete acceptance of the fact that I very well might only be able to) work at a small firm doing things like family law, estate planning, criminal law, etc. making like 40-50K coming out.

[Tiago Splitter]

I wouldn't go to either without a burning desire to (or at least complete acceptance of the fact that I very well might only be able to) work at a small firm doing things like family law, estate planning, criminal law, etc. making like 40-50K coming out.

Agreed. IU put 28 people from the class of 2012 into firms of 101+ lawyers. They put 15 people into firms of 11-100 lawyers. If you want to work in a "decent sized firm" what you inevitably have to go for is biglaw. If Notre Dame doesn't significantly raise its scholarship offer then of these two options Indiana is the only choice. If at the end of your first year/OCI you haven't found the job you want and aren't passionate about small law or local government work it's probably best to drop out and find something better to do.

[BillPackets]

Surely you have a pretty high GPA. Why not retake and try for CMN, the "holy trinity" of the Midwest, and network and shoot for Barnes or Ice miller in Indy? I have several friends who went to IUB for lawlz and all have jobs now, but the employment rate is only like 53%. Plus ND places so few grads in IN. And I mean, South Bend? You may as well go on over to chi or up to Ann Arbor rather than subject yourself to south bend.

[coreaves23]

I wouldn't go to either without a burning desire to (or at least complete acceptance of the fact that I very well might only be able to) work at a small firm doing things like family law, estate planning, criminal law, etc. making like 40-50K coming out.

Agreed. IU put 28 people from the class of 2012 into firms of 101+ lawyers. They put 15 people into firms of 11-100 lawyers. If you want to work in a "decent sized firm" what you inevitably have to go for is biglaw. If Notre Dame doesn't significantly raise its scholarship offer then of these two options Indiana is the only choice. If at the end of your first year/OCI you haven't found the job you want and aren't passionate about small law or local government work it's probably best to drop out and find something better to do.

I appreciate the dose of reality BigZuck! I can't believe the job market is that abysmal, but understand that, sadly, it is.

Tiaaaggooo Splitter (**Stephen A. Smith voice**). So you think the shot at BigLaw is equal at IU and ND? I ultimately would love to end up in Indianapolis at Faegre Baker Daniels, etc., but was not sure which of the two would put me in the best position to get there.

From taking with admissions at ND, they will possibly raise it "$5,000 to $8,000, really not much" (those were the exact words from this past weekend at ASW).

Surely you have a pretty high GPA. Why not retake and try for CMN, the "holy trinity" of the Midwest, and network and shoot for Barnes or Ice miller in Indy? I have several friends who went to IUB for lawlz and all have jobs now, but the employment rate is only like 53%. Plus ND places so few grads in IN. And I mean, South Bend? You may as well go on over to chi or up to Ann Arbor rather than subject yourself to south bend.

Bill- Thanks for the positive words. I did graduate in December with a 4.0, but due to playing Division I soccer in college, I was only able to take the LSAT once in June, the summer before my senior year of UG (October was our Senior Night game and December we were in the National Tournament; when February rolled around, I assumed it was too late *banging head on wall in hindsight*).

I am now studying for LSAT again, hoping that I will start PTing 165 or higher, then I may go ahead and sit out a year and retake. Hahaha, yeah that was the major downside of ASW. Not a whole lot to do... at all.

[coreaves23]

FULL DISCLOSURE: For what it is worth, I should also note that I am sitting on the wait list at UVA, Duke, Michigan, and others. Should I get off the wait list at any of these, I would almost unequivocally drop whatever I am doing and attend. I am sitting on a total of 6, all in the T15. Any idea of the chance that I get off even one of them?

Thanks to all of you for your insight and suggestions.

[BillPackets]

I'm in a similar spot as you (as far as GPA and desired outcome post law school)...shoot for the 170+ and CMN are all attainable (that's what I'm going for anyway). Attending one of those schools will make getting "biglaw" in Indy much more realistic than either IUB or ND. Plus, I don't know if you've looked at the websites for places like Barnes in Indy, but a high percentage of their associates seem to be from IU Indy. That is NOT an endorsement of that school, but it just makes me wonder what the point of IUB law school actually is. Anyway, we are in about the exact same position so PM me if you want to chat more in depth about this stuff.

[Nova]

I suppose you are retaking in June? Good luck.

I would almost unequivocally drop whatever I am doing and attend.

Even if you get T14 @ sticker, you should still retake in June. It could get you a late scholarship or make sitting out an obvious choice.

Any idea of the chance that I get off even one of them?

depends on your LSAT

[Tiago Splitter]

Tiaaaggooo Splitter (**Stephen A. Smith voice**). So you think the shot at BigLaw is equal at IU and ND? I ultimately would love to end up in Indianapolis at Faegre Baker Daniels, etc., but was not sure which of the two would put me in the best position to get there.

Quite frankly ND gives you a better shot but IU makes way more sense given the huge disparity in cost. You just need to lock in on this retake because it sounds like you prefer biglaw. For people wanting biglaw in a small market like Indy there are three choices:

A) Go T14 but be prepared to work in a major market if you miss out on your preferred local spot. Plan to lateral down the road.

B) Take a full ride to the local school but be prepared to work in small law.

C) Take a full ride to the local school, gun hard, and if you don't have excellent grades after a semester or a year drop out.

[yossarian]

It is that hard now, man. FBD and Ice in Indy are my top two firms as well. They have reduced their Summer Associate classes by more than half in the last two years. Ice took I believe 5 this last summer. Not positive. Biglaw in Indy is a pipedream. The only "guarantee" is if you lived in Indy your whole life and are above median at HY. Everything else, there are so few positions that it's really just a huge crapshoot. Even from Mich, Northwestern, to some extent UChi. Ice and FBD both took more IUB, IU McKinney than t14 last year. Hard to know whether its self-selection or or not. ND places poorly in IN, but that is also largely self-selection. It's a rough choice.

But. Don't waste your 4.0. You have a real shot at NU/Mich w/ some decent money if you get that LSAT to 170. Retake.

Re: your waitlist question. Yes, I would say you have a shot (probably <40%) at getting off one of six waitlists (hard to know w/out your LSAT), but sticker is crazy. At Mich, there's less than a 50% chance at biglaw. Graduating w/ close to $300k in debt w/out a $160k job would be miserable. Even with a $160k job would.

[coreaves23]

I'm in a similar spot as you (as far as GPA and desired outcome post law school)...shoot for the 170+ and CMN are all attainable (that's what I'm going for anyway). Attending one of those schools will make getting "biglaw" in Indy much more realistic than either IUB or ND. Plus, I don't know if you've looked at the websites for places like Barnes in Indy, but a high percentage of their associates seem to be from IU Indy. That is NOT an endorsement of that school, but it just makes me wonder what the point of IUB law school actually is. Anyway, we are in about the exact same position so PM me if you want to chat more in depth about this stuff.

I will PM you for sure. I am hoping for 170+... we will just have to see if all this studying pays off in the end! I feel like I never really had a grasp of major concepts (I was obsessed with 4.0 and had soccer every day, so I only studied hard from May-early June). At my visit to IUB, they said this discrepancy was due to the fact that IU-Indy graduate 3x as many students as them, they can just walk across the street, our students don't want those jobs, etc., etc. I will PM you for sure.

I suppose you are retaking in June? Good luck.

That is the plan as of now. I am going through the LSAT Trainer right and have "The 10 New Actuals" book to do. Any other suggestions for material? For June test, I was -5/LG, -4 & -5/LR, and -9/RC. (Obviously RC needs WORK).

I would almost unequivocally drop whatever I am doing and attend.

Even if you get T14 @ sticker, you should still retake in June. It could get you a late scholarship or make sitting out an obvious choice.

Will they all accept June test? I only asked for school and they acted like (never gave a definitive answer) they would not.

Any idea of the chance that I get off even one of them?

depends on your LSAT

Sorry, should have clarified. Obviously, increase on LSAT would give me best chance. I wondered on chance before retake in June.

Tiaaaggooo Splitter (**Stephen A. Smith voice**). So you think the shot at BigLaw is equal at IU and ND? I ultimately would love to end up in Indianapolis at Faegre Baker Daniels, etc., but was not sure which of the two would put me in the best position to get there.

Quite frankly ND gives you a better shot but IU makes way more sense given the huge disparity in cost. You just need to lock in on this retake because it sounds like you prefer biglaw. For people wanting biglaw in a small market like Indy there are three choices:

A) Go T14 but be prepared to work in a major market if you miss out on your preferred local spot. Plan to lateral down the road.

B) Take a full ride to the local school but be prepared to work in small law.

C) Take a full ride to the local school, gun hard, and if you don't have excellent grades after a semester or a year drop out.

Same as above--any suggested materials for my retake that really helped you? I really appreciate your advice. I was leaning towards ND, but you guys are helping me look at this with the bigger picture (job) in mind.

[coreaves23]

It is that hard now, man. FBD and Ice in Indy are my top two firms as well. They have reduced their Summer Associate classes by more than half in the last two years. Ice took I believe 5 this last summer. Not positive. Biglaw in Indy is a pipedream. The only "guarantee" is if you lived in Indy your whole life and are above median at HY. Everything else, there are so few positions that it's really just a huge crapshoot. Even from Mich, Northwestern, to some extent UChi. Ice and FBD both took more IUB, IU McKinney than t14 last year. Hard to know whether its self-selection or or not. ND places poorly in IN, but that is also largely self-selection. It's a rough choice.

But. Don't waste your 4.0. You have a real shot at NU/Mich w/ some decent money if you get that LSAT to 170. Retake.

Re: your waitlist question. Yes, I would say you have a shot (probably <40%) at getting off one of six waitlists (hard to know w/out your LSAT), but sticker is crazy. At Mich, there's less than a 50% chance at biglaw. Graduating w/ close to $300k in debt w/out a $160k job would be miserable. Even with a $160k job would.

Wow. I didn't know those numbers. I even thought about IU-Indy because they place so well in Indy, but wasn't sure due to the abysmal ranking.

Haha, everyone has told me not to waste the 4.0. I definitely do not want to waste it--that's for sure! Like I said above, going through the LSAT Trainer and hopefully everything will click with more time and no soccer to monopolize my time.

Yeah, hopefully wait list works out, but I agree that the sticker would be a lot to take. That's why I am hoping they accept my June LSAT for more money (barring that I score close to 170).

[yossarian]

I'm in a similar spot as you (as far as GPA and desired outcome post law school)...shoot for the 170+ and CMN are all attainable (that's what I'm going for anyway). Attending one of those schools will make getting "biglaw" in Indy much more realistic than either IUB or ND. Plus, I don't know if you've looked at the websites for places like Barnes in Indy, but a high percentage of their associates seem to be from IU Indy. That is NOT an endorsement of that school, but it just makes me wonder what the point of IUB law school actually is. Anyway, we are in about the exact same position so PM me if you want to chat more in depth about this stuff.

Yeah. I don't understand this city. Ice had 2 IUB and 2 IUMcKinney + 1 t14 last summer if I remember right. I'm guessing it's a really connection (not ties) driven market? Obviously the grades are a pre-req, but I imagine these people had connections as well. Ice and FBD are great. Do you know much about Scott, Brown, Todd or KriegDevault? If so, PM, I haven't been able to dig up people on their last summer classes. Not even sure if SBT hired SAs in Indy.

[BillPackets]

I'm in a similar spot as you (as far as GPA and desired outcome post law school)...shoot for the 170+ and CMN are all attainable (that's what I'm going for anyway). Attending one of those schools will make getting "biglaw" in Indy much more realistic than either IUB or ND. Plus, I don't know if you've looked at the websites for places like Barnes in Indy, but a high percentage of their associates seem to be from IU Indy. That is NOT an endorsement of that school, but it just makes me wonder what the point of IUB law school actually is. Anyway, we are in about the exact same position so PM me if you want to chat more in depth about this stuff.

Yeah. I don't understand this city. Ice had 2 IUB and 2 IUMcKinney + 1 t14 last summer if I remember right. I'm guessing it's a really connection (not ties) driven market? Obviously the grades are a pre-req, but I imagine these people had connections as well. Ice and FBD are great. Do you know much about Scott, Brown, Todd or KriegDevault? If so, PM, I haven't been able to dig up people on their last summer classes. Not even sure if SBT hired SAs in Indy.

Yeah it's just insane. Its just crazy to go to IUB or IU Indy to try and get Indy "big law" even though it seems like almost all the associates went to IU Indy. I now several people who have totally struck out at McKinney. What's a dude gotta to get in that market??

[yossarian]

Yeah it's just insane. Its just crazy to go to IUB or IU Indy to try and get Indy "big law" even though it seems like almost all the associates went to IU Indy. I now several people who have totally struck out at McKinney. What's a dude gotta to get in that market??

Associates lean heavy IUB/IUMcK, but partners lean heavily NU, Mich, IUB, ND, HLS, etc, etc. Indy burns and churns just like NYC or Chi (well, not just like). I think Indy is a clear picture that biglaw anywhere is over-saturated right now.

People who want specific secondary markets need to know whether they would rather take biglaw in a major market or small law in their preferred secondary as a backup to biglaw in their preferred market. This + indebtedness will decide which school to attend.

[BigZuck]

I think you have the right attitude OP. You're obviously a hard worker and have done well, just got to get an LSAT worthy of that GPA. There are great resources on the LSAT forum of this site like Noodley's guide for retakers. As someone who jumped 8 points and went from regional schools with weak scholarships to T14s with 2/3 rides, I promise you it's doable to improve your situation dramatically and get yourself in the best possible position (at least before the law school grind starts up). Good luck!

[coreaves23]

I think you have the right attitude OP. You're obviously a hard worker and have done well, just got to get an LSAT worthy of that GPA. There are great resources on the LSAT forum of this site like Noodley's guide for retakers. As someone who jumped 8 points and went from regional schools with weak scholarships to T14s with 2/3 rides, I promise you it's doable to improve your situation dramatically and get yourself in the best possible position (at least before the law school grind starts up). Good luck!

I appreciate it, Big Zuck! I will be sure to check out Noodley's guide! Your story is definitely an encouragement. If you have any specific advice on how you made the jump, please PM me!

[Nova]

Will they all accept June test? I only asked for school and they acted like (never gave a definitive answer) they would not.

generally, yes.

You: Any idea of the chance that I get off even one of them?

Me: depends on your LSAT

You: Sorry, should have clarified. Obviously, increase on LSAT would give me best chance. I wondered on chance before retake in June.

I should have clarified too. I meant it depends on your current LSAT, which you haven't mentioned.