Texas v. Virginia Forum

[splittems180]

COA: UT approx. 70k, UVA approx. 150k

I have roots in Texas but will NOT end up in Houston/Dallas. I love Austin. I'm not sure about what law I want to practice but I'm married and I am resistant to biglaw if the hours are as bad as people make out. Though I have some ideas, I am hoping career guidance counselors will help me narrow it down in my first year. I do know that I want a federal clerkship for sure, preferably appellate. From there, I'm pretty open.

The cost will be completely in loans. I've already added in scholarships and my wife's contributions.

I love Austin, but I would prefer Charlottesville, as I prefer smaller areas and mountains nearby. The heat of Texas gets to me. Both seem great places to live but Charlottesville wins out for sure. I went to UVA's ASW and I came away thinking I'd be dumb not to go to UVA, but I feel like I didn't give UT a fair shot and hope I'm not missing something.

How limited are my options at UT if I am only looking in Austin and outside of Texas? I'm very confident in my academic ability and I'm not worried about being job-less, but I just don't know if $150k is too much debt if I don't want to get into biglaw. Thoughts?

[nebula666]

In your situation I'd take a full ride to the best regional in whichever state you ultimately want to work. I don't think taking out $150k from UVA is a fantastic idea if you don't want biglaw. UT for 70k is really good but you should really be committed to working in Texas if you go there. CA and NY are the second most popular states for UT grads. I would think UT has at least some pull in surrounding states but you'd probably still need ties. UVA can easily place you back in Texas and opens up many other areas but again, 150k is a lot for non-biglaw.

[downinDtown]

I'd rule UT out because if it's Austin or bust, UT can't guarantee you anything. As the consensus of this board would say: "don't go to UT planning to work in Austin. You gotta be ready to live/work in Houston or Dallas." Since those are out, where else would you look for a job in Texas? San Antonio has a minimal legal market and Austin is just a tough egg to crack. So you'd have to look to NY or CA, and those would require you to be a little more competitive grade-wise.

If you're fine living in VA, I think the additional cost could be justified, depending on your tolerance for debt (but if no Biglaw goals, that may be a little high, but who knows you may change your mind). UVA, for that additional cost, gives you a little more cushion for getting a clerkship, but it's still not a sure thing.

Basically it boils down to if you were at median at either school, would you be happy with the job and location you would end up with? And is the additional cost at UVA worth it to secure that median outcome?

[splittems180]

Basically it boils down to if you were at median at either school, would you be happy with the job and location you would end up with? And is the additional cost at UVA worth it to secure that median outcome?

Am I wrong to think that since UVA is more competitive/higher ranked than UT, I would likely do better at UT grades-wise than I would at UVA? Does it make a big difference?

Also, I understand everybody is always confident and I'll incur the wrath of the TLS hive-mind here, possibly side-tracking this whole thread, but I am very confident that I can get above median. I am a bit older, have a master's degree that developed my studying/reading/writing habits, and I got a 180 on the LSAT (self-taught, one month after deciding to take it).

So let's just play hypotheticals and say I'm right that I can get top 25%. Does this make a difference in the decision-making?

[badaboom61]

Since you don't want biglaw and have ties to Texas, I don't think UVA justifies the extra $80k. That much debt is really hard to pay back if you aren't drawing a biglaw salary.

On the other hand, if you could stomach Houston or Dallas biglaw for two years or so, UVA would give you a better chance of doing that and paying all your debt of really fast.

[3L2014]

I'd ask yourself why you want to go to law school, and to think deeply about it.

Taking out 150k in debt to go to UVA without wanting to do biglaw to pay it back can be scary

Going to UT but hating the idea of working in Houston and Dallas seems silly

[El Principe]

You don't want big law but you only want Austin?

I don't know what to tell you...

[ScottRiqui]

Am I wrong to think that since UVA is more competitive/higher ranked than UT, I would likely do better at UT grades-wise than I would at UVA? Does it make a big difference?

There's only 3 LSAT and 0.2 GPA points difference between the two schools' medians. I don't think you can count on there being significantly less competition at UT compared to UVA, at least not enough to get any kind of "big fish in a small pond" effect on your grades.

[splittems180]

Thank you to each of you for your input. I think there's a question that needs begging and I'm probably in the wrong forum... but whatever. Here I am.

What options exist for people who don't want to work in a big city like NYC, Houston, or Dallas? It seems everybody funnels people into these major markets (along with D.C. and Cali and maybe a few others), but what if I'm seeking a smaller market with lower pay? I suppose that's where "regional where you want to work" kicks in. But the truth is I don't know exactly where I want to work. I'm open for an adventure in that way. I've just lived in Houston and Dallas and can't do the "two hours of driving without leaving solid concrete" thing.

So given that, should I take UT, do my best, and reach out across the country once I've established my specific goals with the lower debt? UT is the lowest-ranked school I applied to, so regional option at this point is out (I'm not doing all this again, I want to get the ball rolling). I suppose my question is: can doing well at a higher ranked school help your changes of getting those jobs that are not as sought-after but still solid (80-100k)?

[aboutmydaylight]

Thank you to each of you for your input. I think there's a question that needs begging and I'm probably in the wrong forum... but whatever. Here I am.

What options exist for people who don't want to work in a big city like NYC, Houston, or Dallas? It seems everybody funnels people into these major markets (along with D.C. and Cali and maybe a few others), but what if I'm seeking a smaller market with lower pay? I suppose that's where "regional where you want to work" kicks in. But the truth is I don't know exactly where I want to work. I'm open for an adventure in that way. I've just lived in Houston and Dallas and can't do the "two hours of driving without leaving solid concrete" thing.

So given that, should I take UT, do my best, and reach out across the country once I've established my specific goals with the lower debt? UT is the lowest-ranked school I applied to, so regional option at this point is out (I'm not doing all this again, I want to get the ball rolling). I suppose my question is: can doing well at a higher ranked school help your changes of getting those jobs that are not as sought-after but still solid (80-100k)?

80-100k Jobs largely don't exist for people coming straight out of law school. The thing is, where you want to work is in general limited to major markets + home market. What makes you so resistant to working in Houston/Dallas? Seems like UT in that case would be a great option.

[splittems180]

80-100k Jobs largely don't exist for people coming straight out of law school. The thing is, where you want to work is in general limited to major markets + home market. What makes you so resistant to working in Houston/Dallas? Seems like UT in that case would be a great option.

So you're saying I would probably need to work biglaw for a few years first? Does this change at all if I get a clerkship first? Also, The problem with Houston/Dallas is quality of life- my SO and I enjoy the outdoors and smaller communities than that.

[banjo]

These career goals don't seem realistic to me.

1) Getting a federal clerkship will require you to apply all over the country, including major markets. You won't even know if you have a shot at a clerkship until you have some grades. I don't think this should factor into your school choice.

2) UVA can travel, but without ties, you're DOA in many smaller markets. There are also vanishingly few jobs that pay in the 80-100k range. Many of these jobs have big law hours.

3) Without a big law job, UVA at 150k doesn't make sense.

4) If you're not willing to work in Houston/Dallas, UT doesn't make sense.

[BigZuck]

You probably won't get a job in Austin (especially not an 80-100K job straight out) and it's very unlikely that you will get a clerkship. Thinking about clerkship chances as a 0L makes no sense to me (unless you're headed to Yale maybe). Also, UT students are a lot smart/harder working than you give them credit for.

I wouldn't go to UT if Austin is the only city in TX that is acceptable to you.

I would probably do some more research on law school/legal careers and figure out where you want to end up before getting this ball rolling. The ball will always be there, waiting for you to roll it.

[UnicornHunter]

http://www.nalp.org/salarydistrib

Make sure you familiarize yourself with the bimodial nature of entry level legal salaries/hiring before you commit to law school. If you want adventure, small city living, normal hours, and don't like the idea of having 6 figures of non-dischargeable debt that you can't pay off, law school might not be your best choice. If you're not willing to BigLaw and you don't know where you want to live, hold off on law school until you find a place where you do want to live. Then, if you still want to be a lawyer, target a full-ride at the best school for that market.

[El Principe]

These career goals don't seem realistic to me.

1) Getting a federal clerkship will require you to apply all over the country, including major markets. You won't even know if you have a shot at a clerkship until you have some grades. I don't think this should factor into your school choice.

2) UVA can travel, but without ties, you're DOA in many smaller markets. There are also vanishingly few jobs that pay in the 80-100k range. Many of these jobs have big law hours.

3) Without a big law job, UVA at 150k doesn't make sense.

4) If you're not willing to work in Houston/Dallas, UT doesn't make sense.

+1

OP, seriously, you are seriously going to have to pony up and accept the facts in front of you; something's gotta give.

You either have to:
-Sit out and reapply for a cheaper local school in the region you want to work
-Go to UVA and (a) do big law somewhere or (b) die with a mountain of debt
-Go to Texas and take a job in Dallas or Houston
-Try to go to either school and possibly strike out on a ties-sensitive smaller market

You're going to have to do something you don't like, whether it be wait, or big law, or Dallas/Houston, or roll the dice with debt, so you have to decide which it is. We don't know what you prefer. We can only lay out the options for you.

[lecsa]

.

[splittems180]

You either have to:
-Sit out and reapply for a cheaper local school in the region you want to work
-Go to UVA and (a) do big law somewhere or (b) die with a mountain of debt
-Go to Texas and take a job in Dallas or Houston
-Try to go to either school and possibly strike out on a ties-sensitive smaller market

You're going to have to do something you don't like, whether it be wait, or big law, or Dallas/Houston, or roll the dice with debt, so you have to decide which it is. We don't know what you prefer. We can only lay out the options for you.

Thank you for this. This is extremely helpful in guiding my thinking. I recognize I have high ideals and I'm okay compromising. Just laying out the ideals to see what's worth sacrificing.

I guess my big question here is how significant are the job opportunities in markets outside of the major ones for each school (i.e. Texas and D.C.)? Does UVA give me a significant advantage or is it not worth the extra debt? I suppose I'm calling into question this claim that "UT without Dallas/Houston is a no-go." How much of this is that people who go to UT are generally seeking those markets?

Thanks again for everybody's input.

[Law Sauce]

These career goals don't seem realistic to me.

1) Getting a federal clerkship will require you to apply all over the country, including major markets. You won't even know if you have a shot at a clerkship until you have some grades. I don't think this should factor into your school choice.

2) UVA can travel, but without ties, you're DOA in many smaller markets. There are also vanishingly few jobs that pay in the 80-100k range. Many of these jobs have big law hours.

3) Without a big law job, UVA at 150k doesn't make sense.

4) If you're not willing to work in Houston/Dallas, UT doesn't make sense.

Agee with much of this, but I would input on the points quoted above:

1) Getting a clerkship from UVA is very possible even from median as long as you are willing to apply to a large number of different types of clerkships including non-prestigious state clerkships (OP does not want a major market and most of these are not in major markets, also the ones not in major markets are much less competitive at least at some of the lower levels). However, there may not a ton of benefit of doing some of these, except that you may end up with a good shot of landing a job at a local small/mid sized firm in a place that you like, but this option likely would be difficult with all the debt. So maybe this is not a big help.

2) UVA can travel decently without ties to many places (especially in the south) because of OP's family/small market/southern TX boy/girl story. If done convincingly, it can work. Further there are actually a some southern markets that pay 80-100k, often smaller obscure markets like cities in Alabama, Mississippi, etc. However many of these firms do not hire many SAs or worse do hire them but do not guarantee a job after graduation.

3) True, but OP you may find that your options at larger firms are not so bad. Maybe at 150k debt you could try to go to a small market in the south or somewhere like richmond, or, you could do to 2 or 3 years in biglaw a mid-major market like Charlotte, Philadelphia, Atlanta (if top grades) and then leave with manageable debt, or, third, you could go to a major market for around 2 years and pay off 100k and leave as fast as possible with very manageable debt. Now none of these options are guaranteed and you should probably at least be open to all of them as possible outcomes or fallback options if you go to UVA and take the debt (as well as having a fallback if all of them fail, such as LRAP). If you can stomach some/all of these potential outcomes, I feel like UVa at 150 is reasonable. Further with luck, you will have some options that you choose between (also your preferences and your willingness to prioritize goals will likely change as you learn about transaction/litigation practices etc. and so forth)

4) This does sound correct to me as well. TX will open up a number markets but primarily to the top of the class, but UVa will open up more markets and to a higher percentage of the class.

Also, I slightly want to amend common tls knowledge about having to assume that you will be median. This is a catchphrase that people use here all the time. For purposes of choosing a school you should understand the options that you may be presented with and have a plan for all possible outcomes from the school (below median, median, above median). However, you can believe in yourself and shoot for harder goals as long as the fallback options are also acceptable to you (even while not your first choice). Further, upside outcomes certainly should affect choices even though people should understand that they are naturally biased to overestimate their probabilities.

[downinDtown]

I've just lived in Houston and Dallas and can't do the "two hours of driving without leaving solid concrete" thing.

A few different points:

First, according to a study of cities with the worst gridlock (http://inrix.com/scorecard/), Austin (41 hours wasted in traffic annually) is ahead of both Dallas (22.1 hours wasted) and Houston (26.7 hours wasted). So are your views of Austin traffic relative to Dallas/Houston based on perception or actual experience? Or is indicative of the type of housing arrangement you have had and hope to continue post-LS (want a suburb w/ bigger houses, larger lots, good schools, etc)? Because you'll probably want to live closer to the LS anyway during school, unless you have school-age children and then you'd need to make some concessions. But Austin traffic does suck too. Every one that has ever driven on I-35 during rush hour can agree with this assessment.

Not saying that Austin isn't a wonderful place (because it is), but there are very nice places to live in both Dallas and Houston that would place you within a reasonable 20 minutes from downtown. And as a comparison of the markets overall, Dallas and Houston tend to be more affordable because of the Austin weirdness/insularity/people move there and never leave.

Second, if you want to avoid driving in traffic entirely, think about utilizing a city's public transportation, preferably rail, for your commute so you can ride that to/from work every day and still be productive/relax.

Third, If you have other issues w/ Dallas/Houston (and it's not just traffic/commute related) and it's just something you won't consider, since these 2 cities account for the lion-share of the legal job opportunities for UT grads, I'd suggest you do UVA if you are going this fall. It sounds like you enjoyed your time there, and if you are okay with the debt side of it, you'll be fine.

Fourth, with such a high LSAT, have you considered sitting out a cycle and seeing what schools throw at you with an earlier application? What's your GPA?

Fifth, and lastly, while you may be a special snowflake, every other snowflake thinks the same thing. It's just too difficult to say beyond reasonable certainty that you'll automatically dominate in law school because of your high LSAT.

[Law Sauce]

Fourth, with such a high LSAT, have you considered sitting out a cycle and seeing what schools throw at you with an earlier application? What's your GPA?

Yea, especially if you did apply late in the cycle.

[ScottRiqui]

How much do you need to earn after graduation? If you're okay with $45-60k, your geographic options open up somewhat. No one's really saying that Dallas and Houston are the only possible outcomes from UT; they're just the most likely outcomes *that make sense*, considering the debt that most graduates will have. If you're okay with being a public defender in Abernathy or someplace like that, that's a different matter.

[splittems180]

This has been way more helpful than I thought it would be. Thanks for the responses.

To the re-cycle question: My GPA is low enough to bring down most of these schools' bottom 25% number... hence the lack of better options. I applied in January, and as a boring white male with a low GPA I don't know how much better I can do. My theory is that the numbers game is all about 25-median-75, and since most of the 75s are 175 or lower, it doesn't really matter to them if I got a 176-180. So a 176-3.8 is way better than a 180-3.3, for example. Nature of the business. I can't imagine these schools would throw down too much money to bring down their precious GPA numbers, regardless of LSAT and graduate work.

And yes, I'm happy to admit that 80-100k was overly ambitious. I'd be perfectly happy with 45-60k. That only becomes a problem with a huge amount of debt. Am I talking myself into UT right now? Maybe.

[Law Sauce]

This has been way more helpful than I thought it would be. Thanks for the responses.

To the re-cycle question: My GPA is low enough to bring down most of these schools' bottom 25% number... hence the lack of better options. I applied in January, and as a boring white male with a low GPA I don't know how much better I can do. My theory is that the numbers game is all about 25-median-75, and since most of the 75s are 175 or lower, it doesn't really matter to them if I got a 176-180. So a 176-3.8 is way better than a 180-3.3, for example. Nature of the business. I can't imagine these schools would throw down too much money to bring down their precious GPA numbers, regardless of LSAT and graduate work.

And yes, I'm happy to admit that 80-100k was overly ambitious. I'd be perfectly happy with 45-60k. That only becomes a problem with a huge amount of debt. Am I talking myself into UT right now? Maybe.

You are right on about schools gaming their stats, but it is commonly thought that school only care about medians and not so much 25th-75ths because that is all that they have to report to USNews for the rankings. However, this is probably worse for you so that sucks.

I'm actually somewhat surprised you got a scholarship at UVA, they are somewhat stingy for splitters (they usually pay for both medians as you suggested, however, they do seem to get a lot of ED reverse splitters so maybe lsats are at a premium for whatever reason this year).

That being said you never know what an early september app could bring. Schools would probably like to lock up a 180 right at the beginning even if not sure they want to late in the cycle when much of the class is set. Still, if you're ready to go now, waiting its not a crazy upside type deal or anything, so choosing now makes sense if you are happy with your offers….

/tangent. Carry on.

[kalvano]

1) Why do you want to go to law school? Do you want to be a litigator? You said a clerkship, so I would assume that (although a federal clerkship, much less an appellate clerkship, is such a crapshoot / remote possibility that the fact that you want one should not even be a consideration in choosing a school not H/Y/S). What do you hope to do / achieve / accomplish with a JD?

2) This is not "TLS hivemind" - your masters degree and reading / writing ability won't mean a damn thing when it comes to performance in law school. You've never taken a law school exam, and you have no idea how you'll do. Whichever school you pick will be full of very smart people who have accomplished just as much, if not more than you, and can read and write equally well. If you haven't been to law school then you can't predict where you will end up, grade-wise. Period.

3) What do you do now that 3 additional years of trade school and a lot of debt will be such a vast improvement on?

[furrrman]

I've never been to Texas so I can't comment on the heat, but summertime in Virginia, with the humidity and all, can be painfully bad.