Vanderbilt or WashU? Forum

[PrideandGlory1776]

Need help deciding where to attend:
Rank/School/ COA /3-year Scholarship #/BigLaw+FedClerk
#18 WashU COA 57k/ (150k) 33%
#16 Vanderbilt COA 134k / (75k) 45%
#13 Georgetown COA 225k / ($0) 48%
#13 Cornell COA 227k / (21k) 68%

Goals: Ideally Academia/Legal Scholarship (hope to transfer up to HYSCC) if not it's definitely not big law or bust -- a long-fine career at a small to mid-sized firm would be just fine with me.

Fit: Debt-averse but want to go to the institution that will provide the best life-long opportunities with the least amount of debt.

Edit: Updated with COA

[francesfarmer]

Stats? Total COA at each school, including interest?

Also, its a horrible idea to go to law school with the intention of transferring.

[ZGr88n]

Need help deciding where to attend:

#18 WashU (150k) 33% BigLaw+FedClerk
#16 Vanderbilt (75k) 45% BigLaw+FedClerk
#13 Georgetown (0) 48% BigLaw+FedClerk
#13 Cornell (21k) 68% Big+FedClerk

Goals: Ideally Academia/Legal Scholarship (hope to transfer up to HYSCC) if not it's definitely not big law or bust -- a long-fine career at a small to mid-sized firm would be just fine with me.

Fit: Debt-averse but want to go to the institution that will provide the best life-long opportunities with the least amount of debt.

COA: Will roughly be about the same at each +/- 5k (15k/yr at Ithaca, St. Louis, Nashville probably 20k/yr at D.C.)

Am I reading this wrong or are you confusing COA (Cost of Attendance) with COL (Cost of Living)? Are the numbers at the top your scholly numbers for all three years or???

[PrideandGlory1776]

Edited: Scholly info is for 3yrs total and COL is basically negligible difference of about 5k extra for living in D.C

Thoughts?

[McAvoy]

Yale would be a better fit for you, really. They seem to put a lot of people into academia.

[McAvoy]

But if you're debt averse and don't mind small law, then Wash is definitely TCR

Also I think you're underestimating COL. I don't live very large, and Nashville on 15 K would be pretty tough. If you're going to live 20 minutes out of town with a roommate and live off ramen/natty, then I guess, but I would budget higher for COL. DC, too.

[ZGr88n]

Edited: Scholly info is for 3yrs total and COL is basically negligible difference of about 5k extra for living in D.C

Thoughts?

Total COA at repayment would be helpful, you can calculate it at all three by using LS22's COA Comparison Sheet here:
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=225195

Edit: However, right now given your goals I would say WashU (if you have Midwestern ties). Transferring up to YHS just isn't very likely, nor is academia, so I wouldn't make my decision based on either of those factors. Since you're fine with Mid-small law then graduating from WUSTL with little debt sounds like the winner. Maybe you'll luck out and manage to be top 5% of you class, then you can look to transferring in hopes of snagging academia.

[Tuxedo]

Maybe you'll luck out and manage to be top 5% of you class, then you can look to transferring in hopes of snagging academia.

This is an all-or-nothing gamble though. If you transfer, you're risking being looked over at OCI because you have a different transcript from the higher-ranked school you're hoping to attend. Transferring may also impede your ability to land on the school's better journals, which would negatively affect your chances of landing some of those academic positions later on down the road.

I'd give this blog post a read:

http://spiveyconsulting.com/blog/mistake-2-shangri-law/

[lecsa]

.

[Tiago Splitter]

Maybe you'll luck out and manage to be top 5% of you class, then you can look to transferring in hopes of snagging academia.

This is an all-or-nothing gamble though. If you transfer, you're risking being looked over at OCI because you have a different transcript from the higher-ranked school you're hoping to attend. Transferring may also impede your ability to land on the school's better journals, which would negatively affect your chances of landing some of those academic positions later on down the road.

I'd give this blog post a read:

http://spiveyconsulting.com/blog/mistake-2-shangri-law/

I'd never recommend someone go to school planning to transfer, but that post is just over-the-top fear mongering. Transfers at top schools often do better than their native counterparts. I can't imagine anyone transferring from WUSTL to Harvard and not landing a biglaw gig because they transferred.

[Otunga]

If you want academia way more than anything else, then retake.

If you're content with small law, then it's WUSTL without question.

[raininthedesert]

Vanderbilt and Wash U do NOT place well for academia. Georgetown and Cornell do fine as well as your research is strong and, in this competitive market, is focused on a new or growing area of law. Healthcare, of course, being an important area of expertise and faculty hiring over the next few years.

Cornell would easily be the best place for you to start based on the list of choices provided and accompanying debt aversion. If you are fortunate enough -- truly fortunate as there are incredibly bright law students at any school and there is no way to predict if you will be Top 10% -- to transfer up then great.

[Tuxedo]

I'd never recommend someone go to school planning to transfer, but that post is just over-the-top fear mongering. Transfers at top schools often do better than their native counterparts. I can't imagine anyone transferring from WUSTL to Harvard and not landing a biglaw gig because they transferred.

I get what you're saying, and maybe I took the Spivey article too seriously. However, with OP's stated goal of legal academia I do wonder how easy it would be to jump from a WUSTL or a Vanderbilt to something like a Harvard Law Review, which doesn't reserve any spots for prospective transfers and requires that prospective transfers participate in the 1L writing competition during the spring.

Just some thoughts.

[El Principe]

None of these schools give you a good chance of doing academia, so honestly, you have to follow the money or retake for YHS if you want academia that bad.

Georgetown should NOT be selected in this poll though. I will say that much.

[chuckbass]

Vanderbilt and Wash U do NOT place well for academia. Georgetown and Cornell do fine as well as your research is strong and, in this competitive market, is focused on a new or growing area of law. Healthcare, of course, being an important area of expertise and faculty hiring over the next few years.

Cornell would easily be the best place for you to start based on the list of choices provided and accompanying debt aversion. If you are fortunate enough -- truly fortunate as there are incredibly bright law students at any school and there is no way to predict if you will be Top 10% -- to transfer up then great.

GULC and Cornell DO NOT place well for academia...

[McAvoy]

Vanderbilt and Wash U do NOT place well for academia. Georgetown and Cornell do fine as well as your research is strong and, in this competitive market, is focused on a new or growing area of law. Healthcare, of course, being an important area of expertise and faculty hiring over the next few years.

Cornell would easily be the best place for you to start based on the list of choices provided and accompanying debt aversion. If you are fortunate enough -- truly fortunate as there are incredibly bright law students at any school and there is no way to predict if you will be Top 10% -- to transfer up then great.

GULC and Cornell DO NOT place well for academia...

Yeah, really get the idea of academia (in law) out of your head. It's also not real academia: go to grad school if that's what you want. Make your decision about being a lawyer (ideally, who can afford to eat a decent meal (meaning you don't have 200K in loans and are not in biglaw)).

Go to Wash

[Unagi]

Maybe you'll luck out and manage to be top 5% of you class, then you can look to transferring in hopes of snagging academia.

This is an all-or-nothing gamble though. If you transfer, you're risking being looked over at OCI because you have a different transcript from the higher-ranked school you're hoping to attend. Transferring may also impede your ability to land on the school's better journals, which would negatively affect your chances of landing some of those academic positions later on down the road.

I'd give this blog post a read:

http://spiveyconsulting.com/blog/mistake-2-shangri-law/

I'd never recommend someone go to school planning to transfer, but that post is just over-the-top fear mongering. Transfers at top schools often do better than their native counterparts. I can't imagine anyone transferring from WUSTL to Harvard and not landing a biglaw gig because they transferred.

+1 to not attend planning on transferring. Just retake.
Anecdotally, a guy from my class at WashU transferred to Harvard and will be at Skadden this summer.

[PrideandGlory1776]

Maybe you'll luck out and manage to be top 5% of you class, then you can look to transferring in hopes of snagging academia.

This is an all-or-nothing gamble though. If you transfer, you're risking being looked over at OCI because you have a different transcript from the higher-ranked school you're hoping to attend. Transferring may also impede your ability to land on the school's better journals, which would negatively affect your chances of landing some of those academic positions later on down the road.

I'd give this blog post a read:

http://spiveyconsulting.com/blog/mistake-2-shangri-law/

I'd never recommend someone go to school planning to transfer, but that post is just over-the-top fear mongering. Transfers at top schools often do better than their native counterparts. I can't imagine anyone transferring from WUSTL to Harvard and not landing a biglaw gig because they transferred.

+1 to not attend planning on transferring. Just retake.
Anecdotally, a guy from my class at WashU transferred to Harvard and will be at Skadden this summer.

That's promising - thanks for sharing!

Can't re-take - I've max'd out my attempts and can't take again until late 2015.

With regards to academia - it's not necessarily academia or bust but I'm pretty set on the idea and I'm not opposed to getting a PhD afterwards if that's what's required for me to break into legal scholarship - I'm also I'm not opposed to teaching at Tier 2 or Tier 3 or unranked schools so long as it's tenure-track position since I really have a heart for teaching and connecting with students, really love the prospect of being in a library each day engaging in dynamic legal research and publishing and especially love the inexhaustible areas of Constitutional Law and American Legal History. I'm truly an academic at heart and would be most fulfilled in that capacity. That being said I'm also a realist and I know sometimes in life we can't always realize our dreams and have to settle for what's less than perfect and so if I have a long career in a mid-sized firm and get to work a semi-normal 40-55 hour/wk schedule for most of the time I think I would end up being pretty happy and live a pretty darn good life - that's not a bad outcome by any stretch of the imagination for me.

In the end I'm open to wherever life leads and I know debt is not my friend - so basically before I decide upon WashU any1 who voted for Vanderbilt or Cornell want to offer their best cases in favor of attending those school over WashU I'd really appreciate a good overview of the pros v. cons! Thanks!

[McAvoy]

Go to grad school in history and be a legal historian then. Pay is a lot lower, but there's pry better job opportunities (only because the chance of you doing this with a jd at a law school is so extremely small), and you wouldn't be getting rich over shattering the dreams and financial futures of unsuspecting kids at TTTs.

Seriously, if that's really your passion, it's a better route. It's not like it's a lesser route either; academics use "legal scholarship" in scare quotes cause they think it's a joke.

[Tuxedo]

Go to grad school in history and be a legal historian then.

As a former history Ph.D. student and a future lawyer, I must advise you against this course of action.

[timbs4339]

Yeah, the PhD ain't gonna help you if you don't have the right law school. Legal academia might be the most prestige-whorish of pretty much any type of legal job aside from SCOTUS clerk. And I definitely wouldn't count on it in the current environment- applications have cratered and schools are laying off tenure-track faculty, not hiring.

[PrideandGlory1776]

Wow poll is very close 17 for WashU, 14 for Cornell and 5 for Vanderbilt - yikes - definitely reflects how I'm feeling - such a close call!

I've updated cost of attendance up top and below to make things more clear. Here's some more general info:

First-Rate Employment %

WashU: 33%
Vanderbilt: 45%
Georgetown: 48%
Cornell: 68.5%

Cornell definitely has the best placement and reputation of all the school's to which I have been admitted and places better than every school in the nation except Stanford (77.8%), Harvard (71.5%), Chicago (72.6%), Columbia (78%) and Penn (69.1) with Cornell placing 6th at 68.4% of its students ending up with either Big Law or Fed Clerkships positions within 9 months of graduation.

USNWR Rank & Class Size:

#18 WashU: 189
#16 Vanderbilt: 174
#13 Georgetown: 544
#13 Cornell :193

All have pretty ideal class sizes (except for Georgetown) and are all top 20 ranked school's which is nice.

The Cost of Attendance (Tuition + Cost of Living - Scholarships):

Cornell Law School: $227,000
Georgetown Law School: $225,500.
Vanderbilt Law: $133,500.
Washington University Law: $57,000.


Overall Feel:

Ultimately I feel like I could do well at any of the school and fit right in so my question to the TLS community is - where should I go & why?

[lecsa]

.

[Otunga]

WUSTL appears to overestimate their yearly student budget. But when I've put their estimated yearly number into GULC's COA calculator, it comes out to 68,000 with accumulated interest. I'd think about 55,000 is a more realistic number from what current WUSTL students and/or St. Louis natives have said over at the WUSTL admissions thread. Granted, that's not taking into account the yearly tuition increases. You'll have 5k or so of tuition to pay in spite of the hefty scholarship. So, technically, it's only a full scholarship for the first year. Talk about this stuff in the WUSTL thread though as they can help a lot.

[PrideandGlory1776]

K good to know - so how much do you all think the 12% difference in elite-employment outcomes is worth between Vanderbilt and Washington University? I'm thinking 30-40k but 75k seems difficult to justify. Likewise the difference of some 35% between WashU's (33%) and Cornell (68.4%) is substantial but i'm guessing it's worth no more than 75-90k not 129k (scholarship wise + interest is even more). So I'm guessing WashU is probably best and based upon responses that I should 1) Not bank on a transfer (must be top 10% which is unpredictable) 2) Have contentment with mid-law or else a PhD thereafter (poll obviously is ambivalent between Cornell and WashU) - but do these conclusions sound about right?