Help! Advice on which school in T14. Forum

[blckwsl]

Options:
Harvard: ($48,000) – Tuition: $114,000 – Total COA: $190,000*
Stanford: ($63,000) – Tuition: $92,000 – Total COA: $177,075
Uchicago: ($75,000) – Tuition: $82,000 – Total COA: $150,909
Duke: ($120,000) – Tuition: $38,000 – Total COA: $100,000
NYU: ($75,000) – Tuition: $85,000 – Total COA: $161,000

Funding
• My parents are willing to loan me the money for living expenses outside of tuition. I will still have to pay them back, but there will
be no interest and payment terms will be flexible (basically pay them whenever I have the money).
• All remaining tuition will be paid in loans.

Career Goals:
• I hope to work in big law after graduation and would eventually like to work in general counsel.
• I don't want to work in NYC, although would take an NYC job if no other big law option. I am ok with anywhere else.
• I have thought about becoming a PD, but don’t think I would pursue it if I had a lot of debt.

Other semi-relevant points:
• My parents really want me to go to HLS. They have said that they will just give me the difference in financial aid between SLS and
HLS if I choose to go there. So basically, HLS and SLS will cost the same to me.
• I tend to pay off loans really fast. I paid all $20k of undergraduate loans off in 8 months making 60k/year. (Not really sure if this is
relevant).
• All scholarships are before negotiation. Is there any way to get more money?

I'm totally undecided at the moment (and freaking out a little... lol). Any advice/opinions would be great! Is there any way I could negotiate for more scholarship money with the current offers? Also wanted everyone's opinion on whether money trumps rankings at the T14 level. Thanks so much in advance!

Edit: *Did not calculate interest into COA, since I assume that I will not need all of the ~$25,000 for living expenses that schools put in their budget. (Cheapest dorms are $700/month plus $600/month other expenses is only ~$16,000/year) I assume this difference should offsett the interest I didn't add. Also I took out medical insurance from all COA since I am still covered under my parent's plan.

PS: I know there have been similar threads, but wanted people's opinion on my specifics. Thanks again!

[cotiger]

Negotiate Chicago and NYU, and one of them will likely be your best bet.

But as it stands right now, I'd probably pick Duke. I don't think HLS is worth $80k extra for generic NYC biglaw.

[El Principe]

Personally, I'd pick Stanford over Harvard, because I despise cold weather and the Northeast in general, so yeah.

Oh, and after that, I'd pick Duke because you have the best offer, but I don't know if I would leave Stanford behind if I wanted the best shot at getting out of NYC and you have parents that eliminated living expenses.

[transferror]

As it stands, HLS or SLS are your options. If NYU or Duke bump up scholarship significantly, then we might have a discussion. The gap in likelihoods of biglaw for median students at HLS vs. Duke is enough to justify a 90k difference in attendance.

[mephistopheles]

the harvard name gives your life an advantage. why settle for duke, a great school for a great price tbh, when you can have so many opportunities, not only for you, but for your future progeny as well?

[blckwsl]

Negotiate Chicago and NYU, and one of them will likely be your best bet.

But as it stands right now, I'd probably pick Duke. I don't think HLS is worth $80k extra for generic NYC biglaw.

I really don't want to work in NYC though. I'll take it if that's the only option, but I want to minimize my chances of being forced to live in NYC.

[retaking23]

When the aid difference between Harvard and another contender is not more than 100K in favor of the contender after factoring in COL , Harvard.

If only I could have this option

Did I mention, Harvard?

[cotiger]

Wait.. you got a $21k grant from Stanford and $16k from Harvard coming from a $60k/yr job and with parents who have $75k laying around to lend you for living expenses?

[cotiger]

Negotiate Chicago and NYU, and one of them will likely be your best bet.

But as it stands right now, I'd probably pick Duke. I don't think HLS is worth $80k extra for generic NYC biglaw.

I really don't want to work in NYC though. I'll take it if that's the only option, but I want to minimize my chances of being forced to live in NYC.

Oh, oops, misread that. Where do you want to work, then?

Also, if you can't tell, mephistopheles is trolling you.

[Nelson]

With access to 0 interest loans, no reason not to pick Harvard or Stanford here (depending on which locale you prefer), especially since your other scholarships aren't that impressive. If we were talking about usurious GradPLUS loans, then Duke might be a contender.

[Otunga]

You have desirable choices, OP. With a big chunk of the debt able to be paid back on a more laid-back basis, that reduces a lot of the stress if you know it's only tuition (granted, a heavy amount of tuition) that has to be paid back according to a strict repayment schedule.

Since you say you have general biglaw goals, outside of NYC, then I think Harvard or Stanford would be your best bets, since they open up a lot of non-NYC markets. Duke is a no-go simply because H and S and the opportunity/security they bring is worth 80k more. NYU is out because obviously their main biglaw placement is in NYC. And if you don't want work in NYC, I suspect you wouldn't be into law school there a whole lot either. Chicago could be viable, and to be frank, I'm just a 0L without much knowledge on Chicago's specific placement. Others in this thread could provide better advice relating to Chicago.

I know that I'd strongly consider H over S because I'd like to pursue Boston biglaw. But if you have legitimate interest in establishing a lucrative career in California, then Stanford has to be the choice here. Essentially, the top choices appear to be H, S or Chicago, with Chicago a quite distant third. Granted, there are obvious reasons to choose S over H, such as going for a federal clerkship, but you said nothing about that. Basically, and maybe I'm off-base here, but choose the school that you like better, with Stanford a favorite if you prefer the west coast, and H if you prefer the east coast. But your preference against NYC seems to favor S here, unless there are secondary east coast markets you're pursuing.

[blckwsl]

Wait.. you got a $21k grant from Stanford and $16k from Harvard coming from a $60k/yr job and with parents who have $75k laying around to lend you for living expenses?

They don't really have the money. It's going to be a combination of borrowing from rich relatives and taking some out from a home equity line with much lower interest rates. I will have to pay it all back but they are not going to charge me interest (their way of showing support).

[cotiger]

Your tuition calculations are way off, btw. $16k/yr in grants at Harvard is going to result in $145k, for example, not $114k. At Duke it'll be more like $60k, not $38k. And so on.

[blckwsl]

Your tuition calculations are way off, btw. $16k/yr in grants at Harvard is going to result in $145k, for example, not $114k. At Duke it'll be more like $60k, not $38k. And so on.

I'm a bit confused. Tuition at HLS is $54,000-$16,000=$38,000. $38,000*3=$114,000. Am I doing something wrong? I didn't include interest but pure tuition wise, did I miss something?

[cotiger]

Using your COL estimates, that would bring Stanford (and by extension, Harvard) to $210k COA vs $122k at Duke. There would then be around an extra $10k in interest accrued at HS while you're paying the gov't loans off (in two years).

So ultimately you'd be paying an extra $100k to go to Harvard. Not worth it, unless you have some kind of good narrative to tell us about what Harvard's going to let you accomplish that Duke won't.

[cotiger]

Your tuition calculations are way off, btw. $16k/yr in grants at Harvard is going to result in $145k, for example, not $114k. At Duke it'll be more like $60k, not $38k. And so on.

I'm a bit confused. Tuition at HLS is $54,000-$16,000=$38,000. $38,000*3=$114,000. Am I doing something wrong? I didn't include interest but pure tuition wise, did I miss something?

Tuition increases and interest on those loans.

To be fair, though, Harvard raises tuition on grant recipients less than the general population, so it wouldn't actually be the entire difference I quoted you.

[Otunga]

Using your COL estimates, that would bring Stanford (and by extension, Harvard) to $210k COA vs $122k at Duke. There would then be around an extra $10k in interest accrued at HS while you're paying the gov't loans off (in two years).

So ultimately you'd be paying an extra $100k to go to Harvard. Not worth it, unless you have some kind of good narrative to tell us about what Harvard's going to let you accomplish that Duke won't.

OP suggested not wanting anything to do with NYC. Should OP "suck it up", avoid the extra debt, and work in NYC for a couple years? Arguably so. Correct me if I'm wrong but Duke's biglaw placement primarily feeds into NYC.

[cotiger]

Using your COL estimates, that would bring Stanford (and by extension, Harvard) to $210k COA vs $122k at Duke. There would then be around an extra $10k in interest accrued at HS while you're paying the gov't loans off (in two years).

So ultimately you'd be paying an extra $100k to go to Harvard. Not worth it, unless you have some kind of good narrative to tell us about what Harvard's going to let you accomplish that Duke won't.

OP suggested not wanting anything to do with NYC. Should OP "suck it up", avoid the extra debt, and work in NYC for a couple years? Arguably so. Correct me if I'm wrong but Duke's biglaw placement primarily feeds into NYC.

Almost everyone's biglaw placement primarily feeds into NYC.

If that's really the overriding desire, then he should go to Stanford, I guess.

But last year only 21% of Duke grads went to NYC. For comparison, 26% of Harvard's did. I believe that Harvard makes it easier to get tough markets, but in terms of actual outcomes.. 80% of Dukies are avoiding NYC.

[bdubs]

OP, where are you from? Where do you have ties to?

Coming out of HLS you won't just be able to waltz into any non-NYC market and have your pick of biglaw offers. You should choose Stanford if you would rather work in California. SLS and HLS are probably close to equivalent in a place like DC (maybe slight edge to SLS because of small class sizes).

If you don't have ties to Chicago or TX then you're facing an uphill battle from either HLS or SLS. The market where HLS will have an advantage is Boston.

[abl]

Best Overall For Your Goals
Your best bet at getting biglaw not in NY is SLS (very, very few SLS grads go to NY). Depending on how strongly you feel about that, SLS could either be easily worth the extra money or, well, not. HLS is a close second in biglaw outside of NY, and depending on where you'd like to end up could eke out a first: it's better for Boston, for example.

HLS vs. SLS
Unless you have a personal preference for HLS, SLS is almost certainly the correct choice over HLS: it's going to give you a little more freedom in avoiding NYC and not getting money from your parents is preferable to getting money from your parents, even if your personal out-of-pocket expenses end up looking very similar.

SLS vs. Duke
Given that you seem to be pretty financially secure personally, and come from a pretty financially secure background, IMO it's worth paying extra to go to SLS over Duke: there are tangible advantages, and you can afford the luxury.

[blckwsl]

OP, where are you from? Where do you have ties to?

Coming out of HLS you won't just be able to waltz into any non-NYC market and have your pick of biglaw offers. You should choose Stanford if you would rather work in California. SLS and HLS are probably close to equivalent in a place like DC (maybe slight edge to SLS because of small class sizes).

If you don't have ties to Chicago or TX then you're facing an uphill battle from either HLS or SLS. The market where HLS will have an advantage is Boston.

I went to undergrad and now live in Chicago (been out of school <1yr though), so I have ties here. I have some family ties to Boston and grew up in Ohio. I have no ties to California.

I don't really like big cities, (why I'm avoiding NYC) so I prefer secondary markets for the most part. (I know it's stupid to bet on secondary markets though).

Thanks again everyone for the feedback!
California excluding. SF/SV>Boston>Chicago>SF/SV>anywhere else> NYC.

[cotiger]

SLS vs. Duke
Given that you seem to be pretty financially secure personally, and come from a pretty financially secure background, IMO it's worth paying extra to go to SLS over Duke: there are tangible advantages, and you can afford the luxury.

I'm pretty sure that's not true. OP's getting $21k/yr in grants from SLS.

[cotiger]

OP, where are you from? Where do you have ties to?

Coming out of HLS you won't just be able to waltz into any non-NYC market and have your pick of biglaw offers. You should choose Stanford if you would rather work in California. SLS and HLS are probably close to equivalent in a place like DC (maybe slight edge to SLS because of small class sizes).

If you don't have ties to Chicago or TX then you're facing an uphill battle from either HLS or SLS. The market where HLS will have an advantage is Boston.

I went to undergrad and now live in Chicago (been out of school <1yr though), so I have ties here. I have some family ties to Boston and grew up in Ohio. I have no ties to California.

I don't really like big cities, (why I'm avoiding NYC) so I prefer secondary markets for the most part. (I know it's stupid to bet on secondary markets though).

Thanks again everyone for the feedback!
California excluding. SF/SV>Boston>Chicago>SF/SV>anywhere else> NYC.

You do realize that everywhere you mentioned are some of the largest, most dense, "city-ish" places in the country, right?

[abl]

SLS vs. Duke
Given that you seem to be pretty financially secure personally, and come from a pretty financially secure background, IMO it's worth paying extra to go to SLS over Duke: there are tangible advantages, and you can afford the luxury.

I'm pretty sure that's not true. OP's getting $21k/yr in grants from SLS.

Grants like this tend to be based on whether the OP's technically "financially independent" from his/her parents. If the OP is, the parents' financial circumstances won't be considered in the finaid award. And the OP may not have a ton of money, but (s)he seems to be responsible about loans and happy living well within his/her means. The OP's family is willing to lend him/her a substantial amount of money for law school, and has offered to just give him/her the difference between SLS/HLS. So, yea, I think that signs point to the OP and the OP's family being in solid financial shape.

[cotiger]

SLS vs. Duke
Given that you seem to be pretty financially secure personally, and come from a pretty financially secure background, IMO it's worth paying extra to go to SLS over Duke: there are tangible advantages, and you can afford the luxury.

I'm pretty sure that's not true. OP's getting $21k/yr in grants from SLS.

Grants like this tend to be based on whether the OP's technically "financially independent" from his/her parents. If the OP is, the parents' financial circumstances won't be considered in the finaid award. And the OP may not have a ton of money, but (s)he seems to be responsible about loans and happy living well within his/her means. The OP's family is willing to lend him/her a substantial amount of money for law school, and has offered to just give him/her the difference between SLS/HLS. So, yea, I think that signs point to the OP and the OP's family being in solid financial shape.

OP graduated UG last year. Unless he graduated at 26, they would use the full expected family contribution in their grant calculations.