Why is Michigan dropping? Forum

[omzster67]

I notice Michigan keeps dropping in rankings and probably prestige. Anyone want to give me a quick synopsis on why?

I'm currently debating between Mich, Northwestern and Chicago, and will be visiting the other two in the coming weeks. I've only received $ from NU (hoping to leverage that with Mich).

I just came back from their ASW and was very impressed by everything. The school and the town seem like a great place to be, and they really worked hard to stress the collegiality between the students and faculty which is of high importance to me. They definitely seem to be on the opposite end of the spectrum in terms of atmosphere as compared to UChicago.

Thoughts?

[bowser]

You don't need to worry about the actual rankings drop. But the drops probably can be explained by Michigan not doing as well as other T-14's in the employment matrix the past couple of years (itself which is a little iffy, since Michigan does less hiring of its own grads, making its stats look worse).

I think Michigan is Michigan---it's solidly a T-14 with alumni who love the school, which has had between 3 and 8 percent less people get Biglaw than its peers the past couple of years, make of that what you will.

[Bildungsroman]

I just came back from their ASW and was very impressed by everything. The school and the town seem like a great place to be, and they really worked hard to stress the collegiality between the students and faculty which is of high importance to me.

Don't be fooled by the advertising jamboree that is the admitted students weekend.

Michigan dropping in the US News rankings is meaningless. What applicants should worry about is their poor ranking in job placement. See, for example, http://www.nationallawjournal.com/id=1202643450571.

[ZGr88n]

I just came back from their ASW and was very impressed by everything. The school and the town seem like a great place to be, and they really worked hard to stress the collegiality between the students and faculty which is of high importance to me.

Don't be fooled by the advertising jamboree that is the admitted students weekend.

Michigan dropping in the US News rankings is meaningless. What applicants should worry about is their poor ranking in job placement. See, for example, http://www.nationallawjournal.com/id=1202643450571.

Just curious as to how everybody feels that the smaller class size and different curve will affect Michigan's employment numbers moving forward? Anybody care to speculate?

[banjo]

I wouldn't put much stock into a school's promotional materials or marketing tactics. Ranking and prestige are also pretty worthless. How much will Michigan cost you? What are you career goals? What are your other options?

[bowser]

I'd like to clarify something: we're telling you ranking drops are meaningless b/c employers don't care about them, and also b/c historically the T-14 is the T-14, and they are and have always been seen as being on a different level than other law schools.

I suppose it's possible, given the employment information we have, that over a long period of time poor employment could shift the attitudes of working lawyers (who are the ones who rank the schools according to "prestige"), so that Texas or UCLA or Vanderbilt are perceived as more "prestigious" than Georgetown or Michigan. But I doubt it, and it would be a very very long period of time; enough to not make it worth considering now.

[Bildungsroman]

I just came back from their ASW and was very impressed by everything. The school and the town seem like a great place to be, and they really worked hard to stress the collegiality between the students and faculty which is of high importance to me.

Don't be fooled by the advertising jamboree that is the admitted students weekend.

Michigan dropping in the US News rankings is meaningless. What applicants should worry about is their poor ranking in job placement. See, for example, http://www.nationallawjournal.com/id=1202643450571.

Just curious as to how everybody feels that the smaller class size and different curve will affect Michigan's employment numbers moving forward? Anybody care to speculate?

Is Michigan changing the curve? Who knows, maybe it will help. Northwestern and Cornell both have hilariously permissive curves and they seem to do alright for the schools that they are.

[ZGr88n]

I just came back from their ASW and was very impressed by everything. The school and the town seem like a great place to be, and they really worked hard to stress the collegiality between the students and faculty which is of high importance to me.

Don't be fooled by the advertising jamboree that is the admitted students weekend.

Michigan dropping in the US News rankings is meaningless. What applicants should worry about is their poor ranking in job placement. See, for example, http://www.nationallawjournal.com/id=1202643450571.

Just curious as to how everybody feels that the smaller class size and different curve will affect Michigan's employment numbers moving forward? Anybody care to speculate?

Is Michigan changing the curve? Who knows, maybe it will help. Northwestern and Cornell both have hilariously permissive curves and they seem to do alright for the schools that they are.

Looking back at the Michigan 2013 OCI Thread it seems as though it was changed for the Class of the 2016.

[omzster67]

I'd like to clarify something: we're telling you ranking drops are meaningless b/c employers don't care about them, and also b/c historically the T-14 is the T-14, and they are and have always been seen as being on a different level than other law schools.

I suppose it's possible, given the employment information we have, that over a long period of time poor employment could shift the attitudes of working lawyers (who are the ones who rank the schools according to "prestige"), so that Texas or UCLA or Vanderbilt are perceived as more "prestigious" than Georgetown or Michigan. But I doubt it, and it would be a very very long period of time; enough to not make it worth considering now.

I know they're meaningless...but there is a reason for them. I realize it is because of their comparatively weaker performance in employment outcomes but what is it about the school or its students that is leading to this?

[omzster67]

I wouldn't put much stock into a school's promotional materials or marketing tactics. Ranking and prestige are also pretty worthless. How much will Michigan cost you? What are you career goals? What are your other options?

I have no scholarship to Michigan (or chicago), and 15/year to NU. The cost, thankfully, isn't as big of a worry to me however. Personally, I want to be somewhere where I will be comfortable and in a setting that maximizes my performance in/out of the classroom. That is precisely why the collegiality factor is so important to me, Michigan seemed like a large family and this was coming from students I have spoken to and people outside the school who know what the feel is like in Ann Arbor. This is as opposed to the supposed cutthroat individualistic nature at Chicago, which I can't verify since I just hear that from people outside the school and just a couple that are there right now.

As for career goals: can't pinpoint this as of yet. I know I will want to be in the private sector, in a mid to large sized firm. If I were to select something that would maximize my interests/happiness I would veer towards IP/Ent/Sports (cue the TLS "that's not going to happen" - I realize this is idealistic, but I have done my fair share of research and have some good connections in each field and across the world). Eventually would like to transition to in-house counsel, sooner rather than later I would hope.

Other options: Uchicago, Northwestern ($) and UCLA/USC with good money but I want a national school which will give me geographic flexibility.

[bryanjbay12]

I wouldn't put much stock into a school's promotional materials or marketing tactics. Ranking and prestige are also pretty worthless. How much will Michigan cost you? What are you career goals? What are your other options?

I have no scholarship to Michigan (or chicago), and 15/year to NU. The cost, thankfully, isn't as big of a worry to me however. Personally, I want to be somewhere where I will be comfortable and in a setting that maximizes my performance in/out of the classroom. That is precisely why the collegiality factor is so important to me, Michigan seemed like a large family and this was coming from students I have spoken to and people outside the school who know what the feel is like in Ann Arbor. This is as opposed to the supposed cutthroat individualistic nature at Chicago, which I can't verify since I just hear that from people outside the school and just a couple that are there right now.

As for career goals: can't pinpoint this as of yet. I know I will want to be in the private sector, in a mid to large sized firm. If I were to select something that would maximize my interests/happiness I would veer towards IP/Ent/Sports (cue the TLS "that's not going to happen" - I realize this is idealistic, but I have done my fair share of research and have some good connections in each field and across the world). Eventually would like to transition to in-house counsel, sooner rather than later I would hope.

Other options: Uchicago, Northwestern ($) and UCLA/USC with good money but I want a national school which will give me geographic flexibility.

Go to Chicago. Don't go to Michigan over Chicago because of any perceived "collegiality".

[omzster67]

I wouldn't put much stock into a school's promotional materials or marketing tactics. Ranking and prestige are also pretty worthless. How much will Michigan cost you? What are you career goals? What are your other options?

I have no scholarship to Michigan (or chicago), and 15/year to NU. The cost, thankfully, isn't as big of a worry to me however. Personally, I want to be somewhere where I will be comfortable and in a setting that maximizes my performance in/out of the classroom. That is precisely why the collegiality factor is so important to me, Michigan seemed like a large family and this was coming from students I have spoken to and people outside the school who know what the feel is like in Ann Arbor. This is as opposed to the supposed cutthroat individualistic nature at Chicago, which I can't verify since I just hear that from people outside the school and just a couple that are there right now.

As for career goals: can't pinpoint this as of yet. I know I will want to be in the private sector, in a mid to large sized firm. If I were to select something that would maximize my interests/happiness I would veer towards IP/Ent/Sports (cue the TLS "that's not going to happen" - I realize this is idealistic, but I have done my fair share of research and have some good connections in each field and across the world). Eventually would like to transition to in-house counsel, sooner rather than later I would hope.

Other options: Uchicago, Northwestern ($) and UCLA/USC with good money but I want a national school which will give me geographic flexibility.

Go to Chicago. Don't go to Michigan over Chicago because of any perceived "collegiality".

So you're basically saying that having a sense of comfort wherever I will be living/studying for 3 years should have no factor whatsoever in my decision making process? Seems rather silly considering that definitely has an impact on academic performance.

[ZGr88n]

I wouldn't put much stock into a school's promotional materials or marketing tactics. Ranking and prestige are also pretty worthless. How much will Michigan cost you? What are you career goals? What are your other options?

I have no scholarship to Michigan (or chicago), and 15/year to NU. The cost, thankfully, isn't as big of a worry to me however. Personally, I want to be somewhere where I will be comfortable and in a setting that maximizes my performance in/out of the classroom. That is precisely why the collegiality factor is so important to me, Michigan seemed like a large family and this was coming from students I have spoken to and people outside the school who know what the feel is like in Ann Arbor. This is as opposed to the supposed cutthroat individualistic nature at Chicago, which I can't verify since I just hear that from people outside the school and just a couple that are there right now.

As for career goals: can't pinpoint this as of yet. I know I will want to be in the private sector, in a mid to large sized firm. If I were to select something that would maximize my interests/happiness I would veer towards IP/Ent/Sports (cue the TLS "that's not going to happen" - I realize this is idealistic, but I have done my fair share of research and have some good connections in each field and across the world). Eventually would like to transition to in-house counsel, sooner rather than later I would hope.

Other options: Uchicago, Northwestern ($) and UCLA/USC with good money but I want a national school which will give me geographic flexibility.

If I had rich parents willing to foot the bill I would go to Chicago.

[omzster67]

As an aside, what are Michigan's peer schools which I can use to leverage scholarship money from? I have $ from Northwestern, UCLA, Vandy, USC and full ride to Minnesota.

[francesfarmer]

I wouldn't put much stock into a school's promotional materials or marketing tactics. Ranking and prestige are also pretty worthless. How much will Michigan cost you? What are you career goals? What are your other options?

I have no scholarship to Michigan (or chicago), and 15/year to NU. The cost, thankfully, isn't as big of a worry to me however. Personally, I want to be somewhere where I will be comfortable and in a setting that maximizes my performance in/out of the classroom. That is precisely why the collegiality factor is so important to me, Michigan seemed like a large family and this was coming from students I have spoken to and people outside the school who know what the feel is like in Ann Arbor. This is as opposed to the supposed cutthroat individualistic nature at Chicago, which I can't verify since I just hear that from people outside the school and just a couple that are there right now.

As for career goals: can't pinpoint this as of yet. I know I will want to be in the private sector, in a mid to large sized firm. If I were to select something that would maximize my interests/happiness I would veer towards IP/Ent/Sports (cue the TLS "that's not going to happen" - I realize this is idealistic, but I have done my fair share of research and have some good connections in each field and across the world). Eventually would like to transition to in-house counsel, sooner rather than later I would hope.

Other options: Uchicago, Northwestern ($) and UCLA/USC with good money but I want a national school which will give me geographic flexibility.

Go to Chicago. Don't go to Michigan over Chicago because of any perceived "collegiality".

So you're basically saying that having a sense of comfort wherever I will be living/studying for 3 years should have no factor whatsoever in my decision making process? Seems rather silly considering that definitely has an impact on academic performance.

Or he could be saying that Chicago has way better placement and you'd be foolish not to consider that above a nontangible factor such as "collegiality," especially since you admit you don't know for certain that Chicago is as cutthroat as you imagine.

[banjo]

I wouldn't put much stock into a school's promotional materials or marketing tactics. Ranking and prestige are also pretty worthless. How much will Michigan cost you? What are you career goals? What are your other options?

I have no scholarship to Michigan (or chicago), and 15/year to NU. The cost, thankfully, isn't as big of a worry to me however. Personally, I want to be somewhere where I will be comfortable and in a setting that maximizes my performance in/out of the classroom. That is precisely why the collegiality factor is so important to me, Michigan seemed like a large family and this was coming from students I have spoken to and people outside the school who know what the feel is like in Ann Arbor. This is as opposed to the supposed cutthroat individualistic nature at Chicago, which I can't verify since I just hear that from people outside the school and just a couple that are there right now.

As for career goals: can't pinpoint this as of yet. I know I will want to be in the private sector, in a mid to large sized firm. If I were to select something that would maximize my interests/happiness I would veer towards IP/Ent/Sports (cue the TLS "that's not going to happen" - I realize this is idealistic, but I have done my fair share of research and have some good connections in each field and across the world). Eventually would like to transition to in-house counsel, sooner rather than later I would hope.

Other options: Uchicago, Northwestern ($) and UCLA/USC with good money but I want a national school which will give me geographic flexibility.

I know those impressions about collegiality are out there, but they don't make intuitive sense. Chicago has a smaller class and better job placement. If there is any difference in collegiality, wouldn't it cut in Chicago's favor?

[04102014]

As the amount of debt increases, the weight you put on "collegiality" should decrease.

[rayiner]

Michigan is at #10, tied with Duke. The year I applied (2008), Michigan was also at #10, tied with UVA and NU. The year after, Michigan was at #9, but there was a 3-way tie for #10 between UVA/NU/Duke. Yearly variations mean nothing. Over the last 10 years, Michigan and Virginia have generally shuffled around in the 8-10 range, and Duke and NU in the 10-12 range, quite often meeting each other at the #10 spot. There's no long-term trend here.

[omzster67]

I wouldn't put much stock into a school's promotional materials or marketing tactics. Ranking and prestige are also pretty worthless. How much will Michigan cost you? What are you career goals? What are your other options?

I have no scholarship to Michigan (or chicago), and 15/year to NU. The cost, thankfully, isn't as big of a worry to me however. Personally, I want to be somewhere where I will be comfortable and in a setting that maximizes my performance in/out of the classroom. That is precisely why the collegiality factor is so important to me, Michigan seemed like a large family and this was coming from students I have spoken to and people outside the school who know what the feel is like in Ann Arbor. This is as opposed to the supposed cutthroat individualistic nature at Chicago, which I can't verify since I just hear that from people outside the school and just a couple that are there right now.

As for career goals: can't pinpoint this as of yet. I know I will want to be in the private sector, in a mid to large sized firm. If I were to select something that would maximize my interests/happiness I would veer towards IP/Ent/Sports (cue the TLS "that's not going to happen" - I realize this is idealistic, but I have done my fair share of research and have some good connections in each field and across the world). Eventually would like to transition to in-house counsel, sooner rather than later I would hope.

Other options: Uchicago, Northwestern ($) and UCLA/USC with good money but I want a national school which will give me geographic flexibility.

I know those impressions about collegiality are out there, but they don't make intuitive sense. Chicago has a smaller class and better job placement. If there is any difference in collegiality, wouldn't it cut in Chicago's favor?

Alright I see where you're going with that. I'll just reiterate what I said before, I want to be able to enjoy my time (as much as possible considering the circumstances) with my peers and in a given location because this does have a significant impact on anyone's personal academic achievement and therefore our employment prospects post-graduation. Yes, employment outcomes are better at Chicago but other factors including their heavy focus on litigation, how I personally stand against the rest of the class and how that will impact my class rank should also be of importance. To think that one should go to a particular school PURELY on the basis of employment statistics is not, imo, the smart way to go about things.

When all things are considered, while UC is better than the other two in terms of employment, people here fail to recognize that all these schools are SIGNIFICANTLY better than the other lower ranked schools where the majority of our peers will be attending. These three are thankfully, all great options. Because of where they stand in relation to the broader legal community, we are all afforded the flexibility to make decisions based on a multitude of factors other than percentage of BigLaw employment and average starting salaries.

Now, I do recognize that the folks that are on TLS do not accurately represent the law student community, in terms of our academic standing, but everyone needs to take a step back and think of things on a broader relative scale. We are all very lucky to be where we are now, and those of us deciding between any T14 schools are faced with a GREAT dilemma. I am blown away by some of the people on here who bash these great schools when they forget that the people who attend these schools represent roughly the top 7-10% of our overall community. Many of these graduates are going go do great things.

Sorry for the somewhat tangential rant - it was long overdue and I'm not attacking any of you personally - just a sense that I've gotten from TLS since I first joined in the Fall.

[04102014]

Why did you word this thread as if you needed help choosing if all you are going to do is reject everyone's completely reasonable advice based on the most important quantifiable factors?

[Bildungsroman]

Alright I see where you're going with that. I'll just reiterate what I said before, I want to be able to enjoy my time (as much as possible considering the circumstances) with my peers and in a given location because this does have a significant impact on anyone's personal academic achievement and therefore our employment prospects post-graduation. Yes, employment outcomes are better at Chicago but other factors including their heavy focus on litigation, how I personally stand against the rest of the class and how that will impact my class rank should also be of importance. To think that one should go to a particular school PURELY on the basis of employment statistics is not, imo, the smart way to go about things.

When all things are considered, while UC is better than the other two in terms of employment, people here fail to recognize that all these schools are SIGNIFICANTLY better than the other lower ranked schools where the majority of our peers will be attending. These three are thankfully, all great options. Because of where they stand in relation to the broader legal community, we are all afforded the flexibility to make decisions based on a multitude of factors other than percentage of BigLaw employment and average starting salaries.

Now, I do recognize that the folks that are on TLS do not accurately represent the law student community, in terms of our academic standing, but everyone needs to take a step back and think of things on a broader relative scale. We are all very lucky to be where we are now, and those of us deciding between any T14 schools are faced with a GREAT dilemma. I am blown away by some of the people on here who bash these great schools when they forget that the people who attend these schools represent roughly the top 7-10% of our overall community. Many of these graduates are going go do great things.

Sorry for the somewhat tangential rant - it was long overdue and I'm not attacking any of you personally - just a sense that I've gotten from TLS since I first joined in the Fall.

Nobody is saying that fit is meaningless. You're just incapable of evaluating how well you'll fit in at a school. As a 1L, you're relying on limited information, secondhand evaluations, stereotypes, and law school advertisements like admitted students weekends. Job placement, in addition to being the most important thing about a school from an applicant's perspective, is one of the few relevant considerations that is actually quantifiable and objectively determinable.

And don't pretend that the difference in job placement between the two is unimportant since they're both better than Detroit Mercy and John Marshall.

[patogordo]

prestigious soulcrushing debt is still soulcrushing debt

[rpupkin]

Now, I do recognize that the folks that are on TLS do not accurately represent the law student community, in terms of our academic standing, but everyone needs to take a step back and think of things on a broader relative scale. We are all very lucky to be where we are now, and those of us deciding between any T14 schools are faced with a GREAT dilemma. I am blown away by some of the people on here who bash these great schools when they forget that the people who attend these schools represent roughly the top 7-10% of our overall community. Many of these graduates are going go do great things.

I don't see anyone "bashing" Michigan on here. They're just raising the sensible point that some other schools offer better employment outcomes on average. If you were choosing between, say, Michigan and U of Minnesota, I can assure you that it would seem like people were "bashing" the latter while praising the former.

By the way, there's nothing wrong with valuing things not related to employment outcomes. Law school is three years of your adult life, and you shouldn't spend those three years in some place where you would be miserable. I can certainly understand wanting to spend three years in Ann Arbor instead of in Hyde Park. But be honest with yourself that you're valuing short-term quality of life over long-term employment prospects.

[TheodoreKGB]

.

[omzster67]

Why did you word this thread as if you needed help choosing if all you are going to do is reject everyone's completely reasonable advice based on the most important quantifiable factors?

Not sure if I'm completely rejecting advice, I'm questioning it various angles. It's a debate, an open dialogue....something law students tend to be prone to do considering its in our very nature.

I didn't need to go on TLS to see the difference in employment statistics, I knew them before hand. The original question was to see if anyone knew what specifically it was at the particular schools that leads to the various quantifiable differences.

As I said in the body of my emotion-laden rant, it wasn't directed at anything anyone has said on this thread. It is the vibe I have gotten from the hours upon hours of time I have spent over the past several months monitoring these forums.