Is T14 worth it if you want PI and graduate with 100k+ debt? Forum

[EntJ]

It looks like, even with some of the generous merit aid amounts I've gotten, I'll still owe close to 100-150k at graduation. For some one with $0 in debt who really wants to go into public interest law (ideal and connection are for prosecution in NYC), this amount is a little absurd.

My options seem to be:

1. retake (have a 168), possibly in June, to negotiate even more $$
2. not go this cycle and retake/see if medians drop again
3. decide that amount of debt is not worth it and change plans completely, maybe getting an MA in public policy or something similar

I really want to be an attorney and I really want to practice public interest law. I believe I have the contacts and wherewithal to make it work. I am certain about that, and I'm trying to figure out if my hesitation at borrowing that much is just an overreaction at my debt aversion and if I'm just not thinking long term enough, or if it really just isn't worth it. I should also mention that I am 26, live in NYC, and have a job as a manager in a nonprofit that already pays over 60k.

t14 Schools where I can go owing that much: GLUC, Michigan, and Cornell.

[linkx13]

Also interested in this.

I'd say off the bat not to underestimate LRAPs. GLUC would essentially mean you don't even make loan payments as long as you're making under 75k (you'll be under that for AWHILE if you're going NYC ADA, though that is some competitive work so I hope you've got a good plan and a good plan B).

The only thing that bothers me about LRAP is that congress could pull the rug out from everything. Not likely, but just the idea is crazy.

[Otunga]

Out of those options, I'd choose GULC to stay on the east coast knowing I wanted PI in NYC. Additionally, as the poster above said, they have a solid LRAP.

But could you wait another year and save a lot of income? If so, you could bring down the total COA and so become less reliant on LRAP. If you can, then retake. What's your GPA? If it's from 3.7-4.3 (or whatever the maximum is), you stand to be offered t14 full scholarships. If you can't save a lot, then I think it's reasonable to attend GULC next year.

[EntJ]

Out of those options, I'd choose GULC to stay on the east coast knowing I wanted PI in NYC. Additionally, as the poster above said, they have a solid LRAP.

But could you wait another year and save a lot of income? If so, you could bring down the total COA and so become less reliant on LRAP. If you can, then retake. What's your GPA? If it's from 3.7-4.3 (or whatever the maximum is), you stand to be offered t14 full scholarships. If you can't save a lot, then I think it's reasonable to attend GULC next year.

how much would you say is enough to save? I can save at least 8k before August, and if I waited for next year I could probably save at least 20k if not more.

My GPA is a 3.5, so I think it'll be hard to get more merit than I was already awarded (and I negotiated up) unless medians drop or I retake and get better than my 168.

[Otunga]

Out of those options, I'd choose GULC to stay on the east coast knowing I wanted PI in NYC. Additionally, as the poster above said, they have a solid LRAP.

But could you wait another year and save a lot of income? If so, you could bring down the total COA and so become less reliant on LRAP. If you can, then retake. What's your GPA? If it's from 3.7-4.3 (or whatever the maximum is), you stand to be offered t14 full scholarships. If you can't save a lot, then I think it's reasonable to attend GULC next year.

how much would you say is enough to save? I can save at least 8k before August, and if I waited for next year I could probably save at least 20k if not more.

My GPA is a 3.5, so I think it'll be hard to get more merit than I was already awarded (and I negotiated up) unless medians drop or I retake and get better than my 168.

It depends how debt-averse you are, I suppose. 20k can afford a large chunk of 1L living expenses.

Look at myLSN and plug in combinations such as 3.5/169, 3.5/170, and so on, and examine how much of an increase you can expect to get in a scholarship offer. If it's significant enough, retaking and sitting out with an extra 20k or more to spend sounds like a good move. If you don't increase your score, you'll still have less debt in your hands.

That said I'm a 0L that has a 168 too, and I've gone back and forth on a third take. I retook the 168 and scored in the mid-160s.

[Tiago Splitter]

The only thing that bothers me about LRAP is that congress could pull the rug out from everything. Not likely, but just the idea is crazy.

LRAP is the school repayment plan. PSLF/PAYE/IBR are the federal plans Congress could adjust.

OP I don't see how you'll get out of law school with much less than 75k-100k debt. That's going to be tough to service on most PI salaries so it's really just a question of whether this career track interests you enough to take that risk. Waiting and retaking won't really change things unless you are including a lot of personal savings in that calculation and would be willing to take a near full ride at a school outside the T14.

[linkx13]

The only thing that bothers me about LRAP is that congress could pull the rug out from everything. Not likely, but just the idea is crazy.

LRAP is the school repayment plan. PSLF/PAYE/IBR are the federal plans Congress could adjust.

OP I don't see how you'll get out of law school with much less than 75k-100k debt. That's going to be tough to service on most PI salaries so it's really just a question of whether this career track interests you enough to take that risk. Waiting and retaking won't really change things unless you are including a lot of personal savings in that calculation and would be willing to take a near full ride at a school outside the T14.

Aren't LRAPs tied to these programs? Students would stand to lose if they were changed significantly.

[Tiago Splitter]

The only thing that bothers me about LRAP is that congress could pull the rug out from everything. Not likely, but just the idea is crazy.

LRAP is the school repayment plan. PSLF/PAYE/IBR are the federal plans Congress could adjust.

OP I don't see how you'll get out of law school with much less than 75k-100k debt. That's going to be tough to service on most PI salaries so it's really just a question of whether this career track interests you enough to take that risk. Waiting and retaking won't really change things unless you are including a lot of personal savings in that calculation and would be willing to take a near full ride at a school outside the T14.

Aren't LRAPs tied to these programs? Students would stand to lose if they were changed significantly.

In some cases yes they are, but only in the sense that the school helps you with your monthly payment while relying on the government to forgive the remainder after ten years. But even if Congress got rid of PAYE (probably too unlikely to even consider) schools would continue to provide loan repayment assistance as they have for a long time. And if your concern is that Congress will change the law and get rid of all loan forgiveness the only advice for PI people would be to keep your debt to something close to zero. Someone with a 3.5 GPA and without substantial savings isn't going to be able to get out of any law school with debt that low.

[linkx13]

The only thing that bothers me about LRAP is that congress could pull the rug out from everything. Not likely, but just the idea is crazy.

LRAP is the school repayment plan. PSLF/PAYE/IBR are the federal plans Congress could adjust.

OP I don't see how you'll get out of law school with much less than 75k-100k debt. That's going to be tough to service on most PI salaries so it's really just a question of whether this career track interests you enough to take that risk. Waiting and retaking won't really change things unless you are including a lot of personal savings in that calculation and would be willing to take a near full ride at a school outside the T14.

Aren't LRAPs tied to these programs? Students would stand to lose if they were changed significantly.

In some cases yes they are, but only in the sense that the school helps you with your monthly payment while relying on the government to forgive the remainder after ten years. But even if Congress got rid of PAYE (probably too unlikely to even consider) schools would continue to provide loan repayment assistance as they have for a long time. And if your concern is that Congress will change the law and get rid of all loan forgiveness the only advice for PI people would be to keep your debt to something close to zero. Someone with a 3.5 GPA and without substantial savings isn't going to be able to get out of any law school with debt that low.

What is getting a lot of attention now is possible changes to PSLF. It seems that the idea is a cap of somewhere around 65k. If OP takes out about 100k and makes payments for 10 years, he'd probably be down enough to where he wouldn't owe much even with a cap. However, if OP is much over that I'm not sure how much would still be owed if a cap is put in place.

[Tiago Splitter]

Yeah the proposal for the cap is to put it at $57,500. That's basically three years of cost of living expenses at most schools. I agree that if OP were looking at 250k debt vs. 110k debt recommending less debt so as to provide more flexibility in career choices and the ability to better respond to legal changes would be the way to go. But if the choice is between 90k and 110k all I see are two numbers that will be near impossible to service on a typical PI salary and will require LRAP and federal forgiveness programs to actually pay off. If OP has enough personal savings to offset the cost of living expenses he could get something approaching a full ride from a number of schools ranked outside the T14. I do know someone from NYLS who works for the Bronx DA so depending on how OP defines NYC prosecution taking the full ride might not be a bad option.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I agree generally with the comments about taking a full ride, but saying that OP should do that because there's someone from NYLS who works for the Bronx DA is like saying it's great to go to NYLS for biglaw because someone knows an associate at [insert big name firm here] who went to NYLS.

[Tiago Splitter]

I agree generally with the comments about taking a full ride, but saying that OP should do that because there's someone from NYLS who works for the Bronx DA is like saying it's great to go to NYLS for biglaw because someone knows an associate at [insert big name firm here] who went to NYLS.

Nah. My point is that some of the government and PI jobs in NYC may not be as prestige focused as we've all been led to believe. My initial inclination was to say that the guy should probably go T14 for his goals but then thought about it further and am not sure that's the case. Again, it depends on what exactly he's looking to do.

[linkx13]

I agree generally with the comments about taking a full ride, but saying that OP should do that because there's someone from NYLS who works for the Bronx DA is like saying it's great to go to NYLS for biglaw because someone knows an associate at [insert big name firm here] who went to NYLS.

Have to agree here. T14 reputation isn't enough by itself, but the power a name buys shouldn't be underestimated when considering employment opportunities. OP, what kind of contacts do you have?

I hear you about 110k vs. 90k though. Unless there is reason to believe OP can increase the score by a LOT or reason to believe medians are going to fall again this year, I'm not sure how much a retake will affect things.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I agree generally with the comments about taking a full ride, but saying that OP should do that because there's someone from NYLS who works for the Bronx DA is like saying it's great to go to NYLS for biglaw because someone knows an associate at [insert big name firm here] who went to NYLS.

Nah. My point is that some of the government and PI jobs in NYC may not be as prestige focused as we've all been led to believe. My initial inclination was to say that the guy should probably go T14 for his goals but then thought about it further and am not sure that's the case. Again, it depends on what exactly he's looking to do.

I don't think they're necessarily super prestige-focused, either (depending on definition of prestige), but one person from NYLS doesn't really tell us anything about their hiring practices.

As to the OP, if prosecution in NYC really is the only end goal, I'd probably vote full-ride in NYC to ensure working/making connections during the school year, not just the summers, over T14 for $100K elsewhere. But that would also entail limiting opportunity for, say, biglaw as an alternative, so that would need to be considered, too.

(I'm also not super up on NYC hiring, so huge grain of salt.)

[worldtraveler]

I think you should retake. 2 more points could mean a full ride at one of those places.

Otherwise I don't see how everyone is not voting Cornell.

[Tiago Splitter]

I think you should retake. 2 more points could mean a full ride at one of those places.

Otherwise I don't see how everyone is not voting Cornell.

With a 3.5 GPA I don't see full rides for this guy. I have a suspicion he's putting a lot of personal savings in to get the debt numbers down to where they're at in the OP. As for Cornell I'd be curious as to why you recommend it so strongly. It's the same distance from NYC as GULC.

[twenty]

Supposing PSLF goes by the wayside, and supposing you end up with 150k in debt, you'll be looking at paying 1.8k/mo. for a total of 21k/year. When all's said and done, you'll have paid 218k on a standard repayment plan. The reason why you'll do this instead of PAYE + new PSLF is that your monthly payment will be so low, your loan will go into negative amortization territory pretty quickly and after ten years, the 57k forgiveness you'll get will just barely cover ten years of interest. So ten years into your loan, you'll still be 150k in debt. Fifteen years after that, any existing balance will be forgiven.

The good news is, Cornell and Michigan do give you a pretty good shot at biglaw if things go really pear-shaped.

[lawschool22]

I think you should retake. 2 more points could mean a full ride at one of those places.

Otherwise I don't see how everyone is not voting Cornell.

With a 3.5 GPA I don't see full rides for this guy. I have a suspicion he's putting a lot of personal savings in to get the debt numbers down to where they're at in the OP. As for Cornell I'd be curious as to why you recommend it so strongly. It's the same distance from NYC as GULC.

I'll echo this. Anecdotal, but I'm 173/3.6 and no full rides. Best so far is a little over half tuition at a lower t14 (no negotiation yet).

[lecsa]

.

[yeslekkkk]

I'm facing this same situation. I also have a 3.5 GPA and don't think a retake would make enough of a difference. I just visited one of the T14 schools you mentioned and was really impressed with the PI opportunities. I'm going to visit a T1 school (where I have a full scholly) next week, and I'm going to ask to see what their alumni have been doing in PI. What are the quality of their jobs? I think if you're considering other schools, you should ask them for real data and current employment of their alumni in PI.

If I'm not impressed with the T1 school, I am not going to go there. I'd rather do something else in my life than waste three years of school and not be able to do anything with it (EVEN IF IT'S FREE).

However, there is a third option: don't go to either.


It's a hard decision.

[worldtraveler]

Supposing PSLF goes by the wayside, and supposing you end up with 150k in debt, you'll be looking at paying 1.8k/mo. for a total of 21k/year. When all's said and done, you'll have paid 218k on a standard repayment plan. The reason why you'll do this instead of PAYE + new PSLF is that your monthly payment will be so low, your loan will go into negative amortization territory pretty quickly and after ten years, the 57k forgiveness you'll get will just barely cover ten years of interest. So ten years into your loan, you'll still be 150k in debt. Fifteen years after that, any existing balance will be forgiven.

The good news is, Cornell and Michigan do give you a pretty good shot at biglaw if things go really pear-shaped.

He would have to apply to big law firms at the start of 2L year, so it's not like you can use big law as a back-up.

[linkx13]

Supposing PSLF goes by the wayside, and supposing you end up with 150k in debt, you'll be looking at paying 1.8k/mo. for a total of 21k/year. When all's said and done, you'll have paid 218k on a standard repayment plan. The reason why you'll do this instead of PAYE + new PSLF is that your monthly payment will be so low, your loan will go into negative amortization territory pretty quickly and after ten years, the 57k forgiveness you'll get will just barely cover ten years of interest. So ten years into your loan, you'll still be 150k in debt. Fifteen years after that, any existing balance will be forgiven.

The good news is, Cornell and Michigan do give you a pretty good shot at biglaw if things go really pear-shaped.

The LRAP programs for GLUC and Michigan (not sure about Cornell) pay your interest. There wouldn't be negative amortization.

[twenty]

The LRAP programs for GLUC and Michigan (not sure about Cornell) pay your interest. There wouldn't be negative amortization.

Cornell would definitely pay interest because it's not tied in to PSLF. Do you have evidence suggesting that GULC and Michigan would?

[linkx13]

The LRAP programs for GLUC and Michigan (not sure about Cornell) pay your interest. There wouldn't be negative amortization.

Cornell would definitely pay interest because it's not tied in to PSLF. Do you have evidence suggesting that GULC and Michigan would?

https://www.law.georgetown.edu/admissio ... ochure.pdf

While I shouldn't have to be doing your research for you, I did make the initial claim.

Also, Cornell's LRAP is nowhere near as good as Michigan or GLUCs

[twenty]

You're going to have to do a little more, because there's nothing in that PDF that states GULC's LRAP pays the interest on your loan to keep it from going into negative amortization.

Am I looking right at it? I will eat crow if I am -- it wouldn't be the first time.