Yale with Substantial Financial Aid v. Hamilton Forum

[NavidsonRecord]

So I've done some forum-searching on the "Yale v. Hamilton" dilemma and I've learned a lot -- if you want academia, go Yale, if you just want Biglaw, go to Columbia, and for anything else visit the schools and decide what the best fit for you is. While most threads have the post-degree finance equation set as ~$250,000 at Yale vs. ~$60,000 (COL) at Columbia, I haven't seen a thread discussing the difference between a full ride at Columbia and a generous need-based financial aid package from Yale. So, here goes:

The scholarship I received from Yale is $35,000/year. Compared to the Hamilton's benefit of ~$56,000/year, this changes to equation to (I think, with interest) ~$135,000 at Yale vs. ~$70,000 at Columbia. I have no interest in doing Biglaw, and plan on going into government work or civil rights law -- but that work would hopefully be in NYC or in Albany, so I want ties in New York. With that in mind, I'm strongly averse to debt stomping on my ability to take the kind of job I want to -- and I already have $30,000 in debt from my undergraduate years. I figure that, despite the adcomm hype, I could get more or less the same education from Columbia or Yale, but Yale could open some doors a little wider.

My question is this -- considering my career goals, should Yale's financial aide package seriously change the YLS v. CLS equation? Or is the addition ~$70,000 in debt I'd get from Yale still worrisome enough to keep the choice up in the air?

Thanks for reading. Here - enjoy the best clip from Check It Out! with Dr. Steve Brule of all time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm8oqlg8z4s

[lawyerwannabe]

If your goal was BigLaw, there is an argument for CLS. However, with YLS being only about $65k more, it is not a very strong argument. With your stated goals, I would be surprised if anyone would tell you to pick CLS over YLS. Enjoy New Haven!

[whereskyle]

So I've done some forum-searching on the "Yale v. Hamilton" dilemma and I've learned a lot -- if you want academia, go Yale, if you just want Biglaw, go to Columbia, and for anything else visit the schools and decide what the best fit for you is. While most threads have the post-degree finance equation set as ~$250,000 at Yale vs. ~$60,000 (COL) at Columbia, I haven't seen a thread discussing the difference between a full ride at Columbia and a generous need-based financial aid package from Yale. So, here goes:

The scholarship I received from Yale is $35,000/year. Compared to the Hamilton's benefit of ~$56,000/year, this changes to equation to (I think, with interest) ~$135,000 at Yale vs. ~$70,000 at Columbia. I have no interest in doing Biglaw, and plan on going into government work or civil rights law -- but that work would hopefully be in NYC or in Albany, so I want ties in New York. With that in mind, I'm strongly averse to debt stomping on my ability to take the kind of job I want to -- and I already have $30,000 in debt from my undergraduate years. I figure that, despite the adcomm hype, I could get more or less the same education from Columbia or Yale, but Yale could open some doors a little wider.

My question is this -- considering my career goals, should Yale's financial aide package seriously change the YLS v. CLS equation? Or is the addition ~$70,000 in debt I'd get from Yale still worrisome enough to keep the choice up in the air?

Thanks for reading. Here - enjoy the best clip from Check It Out! with Dr. Steve Brule of all time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm8oqlg8z4s

I know one Columbia grad, who clerked for a couple years and now works for Human Rights Watch in Belgium, focusing largely on political targets in Kenya. While Columbia is not recognized as a P.I. school, I think that alums have a ton of options. She complained that the LRAP was complete crap, but you don't have to worry about that.

[PrideandGlory1776]

Yep enjoy New Haven 35k/yr at Yale may be the best situation of all applicants in the entire country - you very well may have in fact been the winner of the 2014-2015 "law school admissions game." Obviously any one who gets the Hamilton, Ruby or substantial aid at Stanford or Harvard comes in a very close second but in any case your situation is the envy of all - congratulations on your great success and best of luck next year in New Haven!

[SmallDogsAreNotDogs]

For your health, I would still visit both and figure what the best feel for you is.

That being said...bringo.

[aboutmydaylight]

Man if Yale isn't worth it with 35k/yr aid, then I don't know when it is. I'd easily take HYS with 25k/yr or more over Hamilton.

[jbagelboy]

Yale. You have no interest in working at a large firm, and you will have debt either way.

Just as an FYI, if you said you were aiming for firm work in new york, it would be a toss-up, still edge to yale. If your Yale aid grant diminished to $25K or lower, edge to CLS.

There exist very few circumstances where it is reasonable to decline the Hamilton, but this js one of them.

[SmallDogsAreNotDogs]

Also, just to counter the general vibe here:

Look, you've got the Hamilton and you're into Yale, which means you must be an academic star. If you go to Columbia, you'll probably be a standout and get the same kind of relationships with professors that you'd get at Yale. Furthermore, considering your career path is not aimed at clerking/academia, Columbia and Yale will more or less open the same doors for you in New York state. So unless you consider Yale's curriculum to be particularly attractive, I don't see why Yale is necessarily an obvious choice for you. If you want to go to Yale, you have to be able answer, "What did the $70,000 buy me beyond prestige?" If prestige doesn't matter to you, I think you've still got a tough call to make.

[Nelson]

If you go to Columbia, you'll probably be a standout

LOL no.

On topic, you should definitely go to Yale OP.

[KatyMarie]

I think you officially qualify as a special snowflake at this point, and you should go where you want to be for 3 years. Have you visited both schools? Would you rather live in New Haven or NYC? Are there specific programs at either school that you're excited about? Which grading system do you prefer?

It's a tough choice for sure, but you're in a great position either way.

[bjsesq]

Also, just to counter the general vibe here:

Look, you've got the Hamilton and you're into Yale, which means you must be an academic star. If you go to Columbia, you'll probably be a standout and get the same kind of relationships with professors that you'd get at Yale. Furthermore, considering your career path is not aimed at clerking/academia, Columbia and Yale will more or less open the same doors for you in New York state. So unless you consider Yale's curriculum to be particularly attractive, I don't see why Yale is necessarily an obvious choice for you. If you want to go to Yale, you have to be able answer, "What did the $70,000 buy me beyond prestige?" If prestige doesn't matter to you, I think you've still got a tough call to make.

I want you to stop writing things on this website.

[northwood]

do you want your transcript to be full of standard letter grades, or do you want to have a transcript whose grades are ( from best to worst) and must be interpreted with a guide that only Yalies can understand ( and the rest just see Yale- good standing and put in the pass along to HR to set up resume review/ interview pile)?


With your goals, and the information you provided here- id say go for Yale.... and Congrats!

[NavidsonRecord]

Yale. You have no interest in working at a large firm, and you will have debt either way.

Just as an FYI, if you said you were aiming for firm work in new york, it would be a toss-up, still edge to yale. If your Yale aid grant diminished to $25K or lower, edge to CLS.

There exist very few circumstances where it is reasonable to decline the Hamilton, but this js one of them.

Thanks for the advice. One thing I've heard for folks interested in PI/government is that it's helpful to go to a school geographically close to the kinds of gigs you want & connections you'll need in the future. So considering I've got a jones to work in the Manhattan DA's office, would CLS be more useful here? Or are geographical considerations a moot point at this stage?

[jbagelboy]

Yale. You have no interest in working at a large firm, and you will have debt either way.

Just as an FYI, if you said you were aiming for firm work in new york, it would be a toss-up, still edge to yale. If your Yale aid grant diminished to $25K or lower, edge to CLS.

There exist very few circumstances where it is reasonable to decline the Hamilton, but this js one of them.

Thanks for the advice. One thing I've heard for folks interested in PI/government is that it's helpful to go to a school geographically close to the kinds of gigs you want & connections you'll need in the future. So considering I've got a jones to work in the Manhattan DA's office, would CLS be more useful here? Or are geographical considerations a moot point at this stage?

Geographic Considerations are very important as you say for almost all law schools. For example, if NYC gov't service was the goal, Fordham might make more sense than UCLA, even though UCLA is a better school. However, we aren't dealing in regional options here. Not only does Yale have nation-wide presence (certainly with alumns at the Manhattan DA), but New Haven is close enough to the city to come in for interviews, networking, and the necessary groundwork for any PI gig.

CLS has a lot of instructive clinics in Manhattan and certainly has strong connections to the DA's office due in part to proximity, but IMO, these are outweighed by several considerations; first, since you will have debt either way and a relatively low salaried position, Yale's LRAP is superior to Columbia's. Second, you'll have an edge when competing for prized positions (I don't buy the cache of the name of one ivy league school over the other so much, but Yale may just be that special from all accounts, and you have literally way less competition student body wise). Third, it seems from what people say that Yale provides greater institutional support for people seeking to work in government service than Columbia does (CLS, despite it's honest attempts on the contrary, is a very biglaw firm-driven school). As a corollary to that point, for people looking at PI, not having to stress about grades as a 1L allows for more time to be put towards pro bono, public service, clinics in criminal prosecution or defense, ect.

Lastly, the Manhattan DA has a degree from Yale. So that's cool.

[Ohiobumpkin]

Yale.

[Otunga]

Yale.

[koalacity]

Yale.

[dobryden]

Serious advice: don't just go to Yale because it's Yale. Go to visit Columbia and go to visit Yale and think critically about where you would be happiest as a student/which would be the best atmosphere in which you would learn, as well as where you have the best chance at earning your dream job and which one offers a better financial picture for you. Neither is a bad choice, but don't make a blind decision.

[KatyMarie]

Serious advice: don't just go to Yale because it's Yale. Go to visit Columbia and go to visit Yale and think critically about where you would be happiest as a student/which would be the best atmosphere in which you would learn, as well as where you have the best chance at earning your dream job and which one offers a better financial picture for you. Neither is a bad choice, but don't make a blind decision.

And they're not that far away from each other, so visits are easy to do I visited Columbia in the morning, took a train out to New Haven in the afternoon, and flew home that evening when I visited. It was a long day, but it's doable if you're really pressed for time/days off of work.