Wake Forest v Arizona State v IU-B All Full Rides Forum

[apb10]

I have full rides to all Wake Forest, Arizona State, and Indiana-Bloomington. My family offered to take care of living expenses while I'm in school. I have no ties to any of the areas, and I find it ok if I don't end up making biglaw.

What are your thoughts on where is best out of these options?

[itachiuchiha]

Wake!

[rebexness]

Really hard to say without the following:

-The schools you are considering
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships. Here is a helpful calculator.
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
-Your general career goals
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
-How many times you have taken the LSAT

[raininthedesert]

Retake, of course, is option #1 since it appears you are at the threshold to gaining access to T14 with scholarship -- however, without your GPA information it is difficult to discern.

To directly answer your question, the best option out of these three is a no-brainer: Arizona State is located in a major metropolitan area which provides much greater avenues for externships during the year, professional networking, and jobs.

[apb10]

Unfortunately unable to retake anymore. GPA was just below a 3.9. I could get into the lower t-14 but without scholarships and I wanted to avoid taking out tons of money.

I worry about Wake only in the sense that it is secluded from a major area and might be a uneventful 3 years. Can you say more about why Arizona is demonstrably better? I'm long term planning and want to make the objective best decision.

[Mack.Hambleton]

These are all regional schools and biglaw is negligible at all of them, so just go to whatever state you want to work in.

(and also retake)

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

At any of these schools you will have a chance at big law (something like 10%-15% will get it). I would imagine that the COL is similar at all three schools. I would make the decision based on where you want to live in the future. Living and practicing in the southeast, southwest, or midwest are very different for tons of reasons (culture, weather, # of large/medium sized cities, etc.) It is definitely possible to go to one of these schools and end up in NYC/LA/SF/DC etc but it is very unlikely (less than 5%).

[raininthedesert]

Unfortunately unable to retake anymore. GPA was just below a 3.9. I could get into the lower t-14 but without scholarships and I wanted to avoid taking out tons of money.

I worry about Wake only in the sense that it is secluded from a major area and might be a uneventful 3 years. Can you say more about why Arizona is demonstrably better? I'm long term planning and want to make the objective best decision.

Very few law schools are "demonstrably" better other than with respect to the urban market(s) that they feed, employment numbers, and externship opportunities. Faculty scholarship only really matters if you want to be an academic and only a select handful of law schools provide the degree credibility to obtain full-time tenured positions. Often times terrific scholars are terrible teachers -- all schools will be hit or miss in terms of your day-to-day class experience with professors. When selecting between a larger and smaller school there is an inherent trade-off between the breadth & depth of course offerings (as well as overall activities) and individual attention and support.

Long term planning in terms of brand is exactly the same at all three of the choices you've given us. They are all middle-tier schools...and good, if not great, ones at that! Winston-Salem is about 75 minutes without traffic from Charlotte and is a rural city.

Given three equal schools -- the facilities and the cost of living as a single student is a net wash at all three places as well -- I gave you why Arizona State is "demonstrably" better: major city (continuing to grow and attract corporate and regional headquarters), great externship programs (you will not truly appreciate the value of these until a student; I certainly didn't!) and interdisciplinary programs (initially established by Dean Patricia White (now at Miami and measurably turning that school around), terrific opportunities to network, and strong regional portability in terms of cities like San Diego and Las Vegas as well as states like Utah and New Mexico. Also far more opportunities to obtain part-time paid legal work during your 2L and 3L years at no less than $25/hour and as high as $45/hr. Phoenix/Scottsdale is a great quality of life area to start your career until you are in a position to be more portable if you choose to live elsewhere.

Please also bear in mind Wake continues to increase their class size which is a huge mistake from an employment placement perspective -- although for them the extra tuition dollars offsets the large increases in scholarships they are utilizing to attract students with higher objective data (e.g. LSAT and GPA).


P.S. It sounds like you've already told yourself that Wake is for you so no reason to have anyone try to talk you out of it...unless your real objective is get people to unequivocally tell you "Wake is it" to mitigate any ambivalence you have and, quite frankly, should have.

P.S.S. Alternatively, if one of these is located in the exact state you want to live and work then there is no decision to be made at all.

[AT9]

Do you want to live in AZ, IN, or NC? That's the answer to your question. If you end up near the top of your class at these schools, you may have a shot at places like S. California from ASU, Chicago from Indiana, or DC from Wake. But otherwise you'll probably end up in the respective states.

Also, to the above poster, I don't think Wake is trying to increase its class size. I was at the school a couple days ago and they said they try to keep it around 160 each year, but that last year's was a little bigger...probably because they threw/throw out so much cash. And while Winston-Salem is no Pheonix, it's not in a small area. The WS/Greensboro metro is something like 1.5 million, plus it's about an hour from Charlotte and Raleigh/Durham. It's also halfway between Atlanta and DC, so it has a smaller feel, but it doesn't feel totally isolated or anything.

Culturally, WS had a very different feel from, say, the Deep South. It felt more to me like a town you'd find in Pennsylvania or something. Finally, if "prestige" is a factor to you, Wake probably has the best reputation as a university overall (though the law schools are peers).

Sorry for WF preaching, I'm probably going there in the fall on a near full scholly myself lol. Pick where you want to live and go there. Good luck!

[raininthedesert]

Winston-Salem is a very small area (true it's not "isolated") but it's clear you've convinced yourself otherwise as part of your justification for attending -- I appreciate the transparency though and congrats on a full-ride to you as well (something you should be proud of for sure).

Let me also clarify for you, as somebody who is a OL, that Wake Law used to be 130 or less and they were very open about their plans to move toward 200 in size although the market may have impeded that. The 160+ number was very intentional and coincided with the move of the business school (which freed up space in what was a shared U shaped building) and their need to offset the large number and amounts of scholarships.

Wake undergrad has a much stronger reputation than the other schools but its graduate programs have never been as highly thought of as Indiana. However, some of their grad programs are thought of as better than ASU -- ASU believe it or not is a real research institution and, unlike Wake, has actual PhD programs.

Wake is not a feeder school to many of the markets you referenced with the exception of students with familial connections: a prime example being Andi Dorfman currently on the Bachelor whose family got her the prosecutorial job in Atlanta (or the surrounding area).

There is not a strong co-located market with the school and that's the issue. As I stated previously, it's still a very good school and many other respects.

[BigZuck]

Based on what little you have shared with us-

None of the above. Retake.

Answer could potentially change if you address everything rebexness pointed out.

[AT9]

Winston-Salem is a very small area (true it's not "isolated") but it's clear you've convinced yourself otherwise as part of your justification for attending -- I appreciate the transparency though and congrats on a full-ride to you as well (something you should be proud of for sure).

It's not something I've convinced myself of in an attempt to justify my choice; city smallness or bigness is relative. To me, coming from a metro of about 450,000 (and it feels smaller than that), WS/Greensboro is pretty big. Coming from Atlanta or something, obviously it would seem much smaller. Just want to clarify my point there.

But, the core issue remains. These places are all very different, so these points are irrelevant unless the OP is indifferent to these regions. Then market size/opportunities should become a factor.

[raininthedesert]

Winston-Salem is a very small area (true it's not "isolated") but it's clear you've convinced yourself otherwise as part of your justification for attending -- I appreciate the transparency though and congrats on a full-ride to you as well (something you should be proud of for sure).

It's not something I've convinced myself of in an attempt to justify my choice; city smallness or bigness is relative. To me, coming from a metro of about 450,000 (and it feels smaller than that), WS/Greensboro is pretty big. Coming from Atlanta or something, obviously it would seem much smaller. Just want to clarify my point there.

But, the core issue remains. These places are all very different, so these points are irrelevant unless the OP is indifferent to these regions. Then market size/opportunities should become a factor.

Well said.

[TheSpanishMain]

Anyone have a sense of which market is most forgiving of lack of ties? I've heard, anecdotally, that NC is fairly insular.