Help me choose please... Forum

[lschool2017]

Hi fellow TLS readers,

I would greatly appreciate additional feedback into the choice of schools that I'm having to make right now. I have many thoughts in my head about this decision but I've found additional feedback from others looking at my situation from the outside to be incredibly helpful. Here is my choice and relevant info:

I am trying to choose between UTEXAS and Berkeley.

Relevant info:
-I am a texas resident and would receive in-state tuition plus received a scholarship for $10,000 a year.
-I have not received a financial aid offer from berkeley but love the idea of living long-term in the San-Fran area or Los Angeles.
-The only city I would want to live in in Texas is Austin but I would definitely be happy living here long-term.
-I am most interested in placing myself in top position to receive a federal clerkship upon graduation and I have a decidedly liberal resume. I would prefer to do public interest work after graduation but am not ruling out firm work,
-Finances are a consideration but I'm not opposed to taking out plenty of student loan debt if I set myself up well for better employment later.

What do you think? Also does anyone know where I can find very specific data on who graduates do clerkships for after graduation from these schools? One of my worries is that going to Texas wouldn't set me up well to get a federal clerkship because of the conservative bent here. I realize federal judges are appointed by the executive branch but Senators here are very happy to blue slip liberal nominees.

[Hat.trick]

I think you should choose Berkeley. it would give you a much better shot at federal clerkships. Also, if you plan to practice in LA longterm Berkeley is also the way to go. It sounds like the only reason that you want to choose UTEXAS is financial aid so there are two paths to consider:

if you get large student loans you can pay them off easily with a firm job or if you decide to do public interest instead, I am sure berkely has some sort of public interest repayment program, i would look into that.

while money should be an issue to consider, it should not be the primary one.

[francesfarmer]

What's the COA at each school?

I think UT is the obvious choice here. Berkeley at sticker is not TCR, especially for someone who loves the "idea" of living in CA. Law school is not the time to drop everything and move somewhere because you think it would be exciting.

Someone should chime in on employment prospects for Texas natives coming out of UT. I think I've read that that counts for a lot.

[0913djp]

I would visit both but Texas is the better choice simply due to the cost savings. I don't think Berkeley is worth that much more plus a significantly higher cost of living in the Bay Area.

[francesfarmer]

if you get large student loans you can pay them off easily with a firm job

This is horrible advice.

[cotiger]

Berkeley is not going to give you a better shot at clerkships. Over the last six years, UT has placed an average of 8.9% of their grads into clerkships, while Berkeley has placed 7.8%.

Sticker at Berkeley is going to run you around $290,000 debt at graduation. In-state at UT w/ $30k scholarship will result in around $155,000 debt at graduation.

Berkeley is going to place much better for large firm work and PI/Gov stuff.

However. For PI, relying on LRAPs is dangerous. The most recent budget proposal scraps PSLF, which most LRAPs are tied to. The best LRAP is not having the debt in the first place. For firm work, you would have to send back $60,000/yr for six years before getting back to a zero net worth from Berkeley. UT's is much more manageable, even on a more modest salary.

The extra placement power at Berkeley might be worth it to you, but you need to think long and hard about what that level of debt really means. Personally, I'd opt for UT.

If you could really only be happy in Austin, that makes UT far iffier, as Austin has a very small legal market.

[bjsesq]

Your wants kinda make both shit options. I would think UT would be the less shit of the two considering less debt, and you are more familiar with the place. Ignore the waterhead talking about easily paying off debt with firm jobs.

[transferror]

Meh. Coinflip.

Cost --> UT
Job Opps at Median --> Berkeley, but very closes since you have ties in Tex
QoL --> Close enough to tie
Fed Clerk --> UT
Portability --> Berkeley
College Sports --> UT
PI --> Berkeley
Boots --> UT
Aligns with your politics --> Berkeley
More likely to get laid on weekends --> UT
More likely to smoke pot on weekends --> Berkeley
And weekdays --> Berkeley

[arklaw13]

If you want to work in Texas, go to Texas. If you want more options, go to Berkley. You could lateral back to Texas from California after a few years if you find that you don't like it, I suppose.
-
You shouldn't pick one way or another because of clerkships because there is a 80-90% chance you will not have the grades to get a clerkship anywhere you go (outside HYS). In any case, Texas places in clerkships generally just as well as Berkley (LST has 8.3% for T vs. 6.7% for B with T having a larger class size), although you're probably more likely to get COA clerkships from B.

Berkley is a better choice for PI.

[BigZuck]

I think that's way too much to pay for UT, and their LRAP is quite bad from what I understand. I also wouldn't attend UT if you would only be happy living in Austin and are opposed to all other TX cities, although I am more interested in firm work so maybe that doesn't apply as much to PI stuff.

I also would be reluctant to pay 300K to go to Berkeley.

What about a retake to get these COA down and/or a different school? Or maybe a scholarship at another school that might motivate Berkeley to match?

The reverse splitter vibe is strong with this one...

[Hat.trick]

if you get large student loans you can pay them off easily with a firm job

This is horrible advice.

I did not mean that it would not require a significant amount of your income to pay off these debts but that it was totally doable with a large firm job. If OP plans to work at a law firm, OP has a much better shot at landing a firm job coming from Berkeley as opposed to UT. And if OP wants to live and practice in California, Berkeley once again is the way to go. Since they seemed to be emphasizing costs, i was simply telling them that large loan debt could be paid off if he took a job at a firm. Perhaps easily was the wrong adverb.

[francesfarmer]

if you get large student loans you can pay them off easily with a firm job

This is horrible advice.

I did not mean that it would not require a significant amount of your income to pay off these debts but that it was totally doable with a large firm job. If OP plans to work at a law firm, OP has a much better shot at landing a firm job coming from Berkeley as opposed to UT. And if OP wants to live and practice in California, Berkeley once again is the way to go. Since they seemed to be emphasizing costs, i was simply telling them that large loan debt could be paid off if he took a job at a firm. Perhaps easily was the wrong adverb.

It can be done, sure, but I wouldn't say its easy at all. But if OP gets a biglaw job paying $160k a year, his takehome will be ~$100k a year. Let's say he puts $50k of that toward loans, which is a lot--after 5 years he still hasn't paid off his ~$300k loan debt. And most people don't last 5 years in biglaw.

[cotiger]

if you get large student loans you can pay them off easily with a firm job

This is horrible advice.

I did not mean that it would not require a significant amount of your income to pay off these debts but that it was totally doable with a large firm job. If OP plans to work at a law firm, OP has a much better shot at landing a firm job coming from Berkeley as opposed to UT. And if OP wants to live and practice in California, Berkeley once again is the way to go. Since they seemed to be emphasizing costs, i was simply telling them that large loan debt could be paid off if he took a job at a firm. Perhaps easily was the wrong adverb.

That's not the only issue. There's also the problem that getting a biglaw job in the first place, even from a place like Berkeley, is not easy. Only around 2/3 of students who want those jobs can get them. Better than UT? Absolutely. But as much as having almost $300,000 worth of debt hanging around your neck sucks when you do get that job, it's unfathomably awful when you don't.

[cotiger]

if you get large student loans you can pay them off easily with a firm job

This is horrible advice.

I did not mean that it would not require a significant amount of your income to pay off these debts but that it was totally doable with a large firm job. If OP plans to work at a law firm, OP has a much better shot at landing a firm job coming from Berkeley as opposed to UT. And if OP wants to live and practice in California, Berkeley once again is the way to go. Since they seemed to be emphasizing costs, i was simply telling them that large loan debt could be paid off if he took a job at a firm. Perhaps easily was the wrong adverb.

It can be done, sure, but I wouldn't say its easy at all. But if OP gets a biglaw job paying $160k a year, his takehome will be ~$100k a year. Let's say he puts $50k of that toward loans, which is a lot--after 5 years he still hasn't paid off his ~$300k loan debt. And most people don't last 5 years in biglaw.

Yeah, if you average paying off $60k/yr (a little less your first couple of years, a little more later on), it will take you at least six years to pay that debt off. The vast majority of people don't last that long.

[Colonel_funkadunk]

Boots --> UT

This alone should be your deciding factor.

[rpupkin]

Hi fellow TLS readers,


Relevant info:
-I am a texas resident and would receive in-state tuition plus received a scholarship for $10,000 a year.
-I have not received a financial aid offer from berkeley but love the idea of living long-term in the San-Fran area or Los Angeles.
-The only city I would want to live in in Texas is Austin but I would definitely be happy living here long-term.
-I am most interested in placing myself in top position to receive a federal clerkship upon graduation and I have a decidedly liberal resume. I would prefer to do public interest work after graduation but am not ruling out firm work,
-Finances are a consideration but I'm not opposed to taking out plenty of student loan debt if I set myself up well for better employment later.

Putting COA aside for a moment, Berkeley is the much better choice for you. Outside of HYS, Boalt is the best law school to attend if you want to work in SF or LA. And you will definitely have more "liberal PI" opportunities coming out of Berkeley. As for UT, I would be very concerned about the fact that Austin is the only Texas city in which you would want to work long-term. There just aren't that many legal jobs in austin. If you attend UT, you've got to be prepared for the possibility of working in Houston or Dallas. If you can't see yourself working in either of those cities, don't go to UT.

Having said all that, the debt from Berkeley will be huge. TLS is currently littered with tales of woe from recent graduates who regret paying sticker for good law schools. You really need to think this through. But if I were you, and if I were dead set on going to law school, I would take Berkeley over UT given your goals and preferences. At the end of the day, UT is a regional school, and it's just a terrible idea to attend such a school in a region in which you don't want to live and work.

[crit_racer]

Meh. Coinflip.

Cost --> UT
Job Opps at Median --> Berkeley, but very closes since you have ties in Tex
QoL --> Close enough to tie
Fed Clerk --> UT
Portability --> Berkeley
College Sports --> UT
PI --> Berkeley
Boots --> UT
Aligns with your politics --> Berkeley
More likely to get laid on weekends --> UT
More likely to smoke pot on weekends --> Berkeley
And weekdays --> Berkeley

lol. For the record, there's plenty of wake 'n bake action in Austin too

[rpupkin]

Berkeley is not going to give you a better shot at clerkships. Over the last six years, UT has placed an average of 8.9% of their grads into clerkships, while Berkeley has placed 7.8%.

This is somewhat misleading. Cotiger is comparing clerkship placement numbers for graduates (i.e., for people who clerk in the year immediately following their third year of law school). Berkeley has the disadvantage of being in California, where now most of the district court judges only hire clerks with legal work experience. Quite a few Boalties end up clerking in N.D. Cal. or C.D. Cal after having worked for a year or two at a firm (or in PI) first. Those students don't show up in the 7.8%.

Also, I've got a list of current clerkship placement for the class of 2014 for both Boalt and UT. (My SO goes to UT.) Just eyeballing it, the Berkeley students are landing more impressive clerkships. Whereas the UT clerkships are generally focused on district courts in Texas and rural areas in the south and southwest, the Berkeley students are getting COA clerkships with feeders in the Ninth, Second, and DC circuits. And many of the district court clerkships are in competitive districts (e.g., S.D.N.Y., C.D. Cal).

On balance, I would say that Berkeley has the edge over UT for clerkships (though I would not make your decision based on this factor).

[jimbeam21]

Do you have other options? Say, a full ride at a crappier school? It seems ridiculous to take out $150k in loans planning to go into public interest. If your version of "better employment later" means a $60k job in public interest vs a $50k job in public interest, you're screwed either way. The only way you're paying off those loans is big law, making $160k+ a year, for 10 years. Not easy from either of those schools, but probably better odds at Berekely.

If you really want to work in public interest, there are plenty of ways to do it without going to law school.

[El Principe]

I'm not sure if someone's addressed this or not, but I'm not sure Berkeley gives you a higher chance of federal clerkships compared to Texas or the rest of the T14s. From what I've looked up + read on here + anecdotal word of mouth, clerkship chances are roughly equal until you get to HYS.

Now, if you really want Cali OP, fine go to Berkeley. Austin's really difficult to get, even if you go to Texas anyways. But you're coming out with a quarter of a million dollars in debt, which could still leave you without a job that can pay it off, and even if you do find a job that can work off that debt, you won't be able to pay if off as fast because unlike Texas, Cali has a high cost of living AND state income tax.

But honestly, I don't understand how you're a Texas resident and would only want to live in Austin. Dallas is fairly liberal, and though Houston's relatively conservative, I think it's a stretch to compare the ideologies of Houstonians to those in the back woods. I mean, unless you're SUPER liberal (Obama bumper sticker, 30 flannel shirts & 15 chinos in the closet, Prius driving type of person). Then maybe, Dallas/Houston aren't fits for you but... yeah.

I'd take Texas. That being said, I did get a bit more scholarship $$$. I'd say wait for grants from UT, which are supposed to get to us early April.

[Nomo]

Neither of these options make sense for you.

The debt at Berkeley is way too high. One poster indicated 6 years of 50k payments would cover your 290k debt. But, that isn't true, because you have to factor in the 7.9% Gradplus interest that will be accruing on the principal. That is an enormous factor. And even making those 50k payments assumes you can (1) get a biglaw job, which less than 2/3 of Berkeley students can do (2) hang on to it for 6,7,8 years (3) You maintain the self discipline to save that much, which few people can do under the stress of biglaw and surrounded by others with money to spend. As for LRAP, I think its obvious that nobody can rely on LRAP's that are tied to IBR/PAYE anymore.

Texas doesn't make sense if you only want to practice in Austin. Its such a tiny market.

If these are your only options you just shouldn't go. You've been accepted to two great schools, but the job market is tight and tuition is more than double what it should be. It sucks, but its the way it is.

[cotiger]

Neither of these options make sense for you.

The debt at Berkeley is way too high. One poster indicated 6 years of 50k payments would cover your 290k debt. But, that isn't true, because you have to factor in the 7.9% Gradplus interest that will be accruing on the principal. That is an enormous factor. And even making those 50k payments assumes you can (1) get a biglaw job, which less than 2/3 of Berkeley students can do (2) hang on to it for 6,7,8 years (3) You maintain the self discipline to save that much, which few people can do under the stress of biglaw and surrounded by others with money to spend. As for LRAP, I think its obvious that nobody can rely on LRAP's that are tied to IBR/PAYE anymore.

Texas doesn't make sense if you only want to practice in Austin. Its such a tiny market.

If these are your only options you just shouldn't go. You've been accepted to two great schools, but the job market is tight and tuition is more than double what it should be. It sucks, but its the way it is.

No, I said six years of $60k would cover a $290k debt at graduation. Which, including interest, it will.

[Nomo]

Neither of these options make sense for you.

The debt at Berkeley is way too high. One poster indicated 6 years of 50k payments would cover your 290k debt. But, that isn't true, because you have to factor in the 7.9% Gradplus interest that will be accruing on the principal. That is an enormous factor. And even making those 50k payments assumes you can (1) get a biglaw job, which less than 2/3 of Berkeley students can do (2) hang on to it for 6,7,8 years (3) You maintain the self discipline to save that much, which few people can do under the stress of biglaw and surrounded by others with money to spend. As for LRAP, I think its obvious that nobody can rely on LRAP's that are tied to IBR/PAYE anymore.

Texas doesn't make sense if you only want to practice in Austin. Its such a tiny market.

If these are your only options you just shouldn't go. You've been accepted to two great schools, but the job market is tight and tuition is more than double what it should be. It sucks, but its the way it is.

No, I said six years of $60k would cover a $290k debt at graduation. Which, including interest, it will.

Ah. I misread. Sorry.

[Otunga]

The vote here is neither. But if you have to go, then Texas, since Berkeley is simply too expensive. At Texas, the debt doesn't seem desirable, but it's manageable. Maybe posters can speak to the viability of transitioning from Texas to California after a few years? Or alternatively, could you stomach a job somewhere else aside from Austin in Texas for a little while? And then you could lateral to Austin?

[rad lulz]

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