Michigan v UCLA v ASU Forum

[beachnbeer]

Hello all,
First time poster, long time reader here. I am having trouble coming to a decision as the clock ticks nearer so I wanted to throw this poll out there and get some diverse thoughts on the subject. First a little about me, 3.6 GPA 159 LSAT but decent softs and URM.

I am deciding between Michigan at sticker, UCLA at sticker, or ASU full ride. I will need to take out loans to pay for school and am fairly frightened of being able to pay off massive loans. I am from California, but weather isn't necessarily a major factor in my decision as I believe a change could be a good thing for 3 years. I have no clue what type of law I want to practice, which makes choosing a school for a program difficult. I have no preference for where I want to work, but if forced to choose I would pick San Diego or Washington DC. Lastly, I know my LSAT number isn't high, but I cannot take it again and consume a year off (as I know many will suggest).

Thank you all for your input, and I would be happy to answer anymore questions to help you help me along the decision process.

[Winston1984]

Why can't you retake?

[WheninLaw]

If I offered you $200,000 to wait a year, would you?

[cslouisck]

First of all, congrats on the acceptances. Second, do you have any thoughts on what kind of work you'd like to do? Acquiring more than $200,000 in debt at UCLA and Michigan will force you down the biglaw path, irrespective of whether you'd enjoy it. Are you absolutely sure you want that for yourself? Could you be happy living out your days in Arizona? If the answer to the latter question is yes, then start talking to some ASU grads to see if the kind of work they're doing would interest you.

[beachnbeer]

Why can't you retake?

I cannot retake for three reasons. Honestly, I am terribly impatient and I need to go straight from undergrad or else it will be difficult for me to go back to school. Another reason is financial, in that I can no longer rely on parents for money/housing and thus need to make a move on my own. Also, my practice LSAT scores were all around the same area with only a few higher and I have no desire to glance upon another logic game. While this may be seem unreasonable, it is a parameter that I choose to have going forward with my law decision

First of all, congrats on the acceptances. Second, do you have any thoughts on what kind of work you'd like to do? Acquiring more than $200,000 in debt at UCLA and Michigan will force you down the biglaw path, irrespective of whether you'd enjoy it. Are you absolutely sure you want that for yourself? Could you be happy living out your days in Arizona? If the answer to the latter question is yes, then start talking to some ASU grads to see if the kind of work they're doing would interest you.

I really have no idea of what type of law I would want to practice. Criminal law seems fascinating but Im sure that is everyone's first impression. Other than that, possibly corporate law, IP/Copyright. Lastly, I wouldn't be opposed to living in Arizona for a while.

[FlightoftheEarls]

Why can't you retake?

I cannot retake for three reasons. Honestly, I am terribly impatient and I need to go straight from undergrad or else it will be difficult for me to go back to school. Another reason is financial, in that I can no longer rely on parents for money/housing and thus need to make a move on my own. Also, my practice LSAT scores were all around the same area with only a few higher and I have no desire to glance upon another logic game. While this may be seem unreasonable, it is a parameter that I choose to have going forward with my law decision

Oh good.

[BigZuck]

Since you're not going to retake the only logical decision is to not go to law school.

Eta: Michigan at sticker might be defensible for someone but not someone as unmotivated as the OP. His lunch will be eaten in law school, I'm pretty confident about that.

[WheninLaw]

I cannot retake for three reasons. Honestly, I am terribly impatient and I need to go straight from undergrad or else it will be difficult for me to go back to school. Another reason is financial, in that I can no longer rely on parents for money/housing and thus need to make a move on my own. Also, my practice LSAT scores were all around the same area with only a few higher and I have no desire to glance upon another logic game. While this may be seem unreasonable, it is a parameter that I choose to have going forward with my law decision

It sounds like you would be better served by getting a job and learning how to live on your own than going straight to law school. If you make the [very poor] decision to go, you need to figure out your priorities. If any job > CA job, then I'd go to Michigan. If reverse, then I'd go to UCLA.

[HP5450]

ASU is a horrible choice. Less than 10 percent of graduates are ending up at large law firms or federal clerkships, which means that 90 percent are not making a very much money. In contrast, 25 percent of their graduates are unemployed, employed short-term or part time. Even with the scholarship, you'll pay for that choice in the long run.

Between UCLA and Michigan, Michigan is by far a better choice for most people at cost. The L.A. market may well be easier coming out of Michigan for someone with CA ties than for a similarly situated student at UCLA, and Michigan is definitely a more portable degree. Absent a compelling reason to stay in California for law school, go to Michigan.

However, I agree with the above posters that someone in your situation might be better served waiting for a year, getting a job, and retaking the LSAT.

As a side note, recognize why you're being accepted and appreciate that you may not end up competing well in GPA terms in law school. There's no magic 8-ball for how you'll do, but know that law is a tough path if you don't perform well. Don't try to hide in law school. You'll get crushed.

edit: I want to caveat the last paragraph by adding that if you went to MIT, majored in mechanical engineering, and managed a 3.6, then maybe the low LSAT score isn't something to worry about too much, thought you should be able to do better on the LSAT. If you went to ASU and ended up with a 3.6, then going to a T14 law school is going to require a different standard of care, so to speak.

[cslouisck]

I cannot retake for three reasons. Honestly, I am terribly impatient and I need to go straight from undergrad or else it will be difficult for me to go back to school. Another reason is financial, in that I can no longer rely on parents for money/housing and thus need to make a move on my own. Also, my practice LSAT scores were all around the same area with only a few higher and I have no desire to glance upon another logic game. While this may be seem unreasonable, it is a parameter that I choose to have going forward with my law decision


I really have no idea of what type of law I would want to practice. Criminal law seems fascinating but Im sure that is everyone's first impression. Other than that, possibly corporate law, IP/Copyright. Lastly, I wouldn't be opposed to living in Arizona for a while.

OP, wait a year. See whether you can enjoy life without becoming an attorney. If your desire to go to law school is so tenuous that it might vanish if you take some time off, then law school will crush you. And then it will leave you with ~ $230,000 in debt (and that's just the principle, not the interest that'll capitalize during school). You do not get to dabble in criminal law with that kind of debt. You will have to take a biglaw job that, at both Michigan and UCLA, you're not guaranteed to get. $230,000 is a real number. It happens to real people. It is $2,700 per month for 10 years. It does not magically go away because law school was supposed to get you a job that would pay it off.

You say you're impatient. Are you prepared to let that impatience now shackle you for the next 14 years of your life, at the very least?

[jbagelboy]

Retake the lsat and get a job. Your reasons for not retaking are pretty terrible, you're a senior in college so you have no business heading straight to law school anyway, and you have a sub-160 score.

If you got into Michigan with these numbers, imagine what you could do with a 165?

Don't be foolish and impatient, you'll regret it for the rest of your life. Answer to the poll: none of the above.

[francesfarmer]

Why can't you retake?

I cannot retake for three reasons. Honestly, I am terribly impatient and I need to go straight from undergrad or else it will be difficult for me to go back to school. Another reason is financial, in that I can no longer rely on parents for money/housing and thus need to make a move on my own. Also, my practice LSAT scores were all around the same area with only a few higher and I have no desire to glance upon another logic game. While this may be seem unreasonable, it is a parameter that I choose to have going forward with my law decision

Oh good.

OP, you have a lot to learn about life. Please don't go to law school straight from undergrad. I think you will really regret any of these options.

You need to graduate, face the real world, get a job, and retake.

[Winston1984]

Retake the lsat and get a job. Your reasons for not retaking are pretty terrible, you're a senior in college so you have no business heading straight to law school anyway, and you have a sub-160 score.

If you got into Michigan with these numbers, imagine what you could do with a 165?

Don't be foolish and impatient, you'll regret it for the rest of your life. Answer to the poll: none of the above.

+1

[Mauve.Dino]

If you do not retake the LSAT for a higher score, you will regret it for the rest of your life.

[eastcoast_iub]

To provide a contrasting viewpoint, UM's LRAP is fantastic, so you will not necessarily be in financial hell if you don't score BigLaw. You can also pencil yourself in for a 1L diversity SA position, so that will ease the debt burden a bit.

That said, as the others have noted, you may not do well at UM considering your stats. Not that they are completely determinative, but to the extent that LSAT predicts performance you will be at a significant disadvantage here. If you are open to the possibility of public interest/government/public defense, I would say go to UM. If you're BigLaw or bust, know that you're taking a big risk and be prepared to work your ass off 1L year. Also, if you can get in summer start, try to do that b/c it will give you an extra semester before OCI that you can take GPA-padding seminars. This is why, to my knowledge, summer starters outperform traditional starters.

[BigZuck]

To provide a contrasting viewpoint, UM's LRAP is fantastic, so you will not necessarily be in financial hell if you don't score BigLaw. You can also pencil yourself in for a 1L diversity SA position, so that will ease the debt burden a bit.

That said, as the others have noted, you may not do well at UM considering your stats. Not that they are completely determinative, but to the extent that LSAT predicts performance you will be at a significant disadvantage here. If you are open to the possibility of public interest/government/public defense, I would say go to UM. If you're BigLaw or bust, know that you're taking a big risk and be prepared to work your ass off 1L year. Also, if you can get in summer start, try to do that b/c it will give you an extra semester before OCI that you can take GPA-padding seminars. This is why, to my knowledge, summer starters outperform traditional starters.

Lol. So if the OP retook the LSAT and scored 7 points higher (or whatever) because he used better prep materials that means he has statistically improved his chances of having better law school grades at the same exact school?

Come on bro.

The biggest problem with the OP is that he can't focus on what he needs to do to set himself up for success. That's why his lunch will be eaten.

[rad lulz]

.

[Nomo]

To provide a contrasting viewpoint, UM's LRAP is fantastic, so you will not necessarily be in financial hell if you don't score BigLaw. You can also pencil yourself in for a 1L diversity SA position, so that will ease the debt burden a bit.

That said, as the others have noted, you may not do well at UM considering your stats. Not that they are completely determinative, but to the extent that LSAT predicts performance you will be at a significant disadvantage here. If you are open to the possibility of public interest/government/public defense, I would say go to UM. If you're BigLaw or bust, know that you're taking a big risk and be prepared to work your ass off 1L year. Also, if you can get in summer start, try to do that b/c it will give you an extra semester before OCI that you can take GPA-padding seminars. This is why, to my knowledge, summer starters outperform traditional starters.

UM's LRAP is great . . . assuming PSLF doesn't collapse in the near future. And Obama is apparently ready to gut it. Who is going to stop him? The republicans? The 22,000 people who signed a petition not to gut PSLF?

Personally, I really liked Michigan. I think it has a great public-interest community. I just don't know that you should bank on the LRAP right now.

[mvp99]

its a toss whether you'll be able to pay that money back. Believe me when i say you don't want the pressure of knowing halfway through your first year youre already 60k in the hole and u most likely will never be able to pay it back.. ive seen people sunk in depression.. dont be over optimistic about ur capacity.. i have seen people do well in a top school with that lsat but odds are against u.. ull be against very very smart people ... also urm wont be a huge boost when its time to get a job. gl

[CTT]

its a toss whether you'll be able to pay that money back. Believe me when i say you don't want the pressure of knowing halfway through your first year youre already 60k in the hole and u most likely will never be able to pay it back.. ive seen people sunk in depression.. dont be over optimistic about ur capacity.. i have seen people do well in a top school with that lsat but odds are against u.. ull be against very very smart people ... also urm wont be a huge boost when its time to get a job. gl

This. If you're in the top half of the class, URM will help you snag a firm job. If you're not, you'll likely be stuck figuring it out with LRAP etc. Then again, go to ASU and you're sure to be stuck struggling.