Denver vs Mich St vs DePaul vs NIU Forum

[DarkHorse91]

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[FutureSuperLawyer]

Everyone on here will tell you its extremely unlikely you will realize your goals by attending any of these schools. A far more likely outcome is that you will be unable to find work as an attorney. They will recommend you look at law school transparency's website which shows just how bad outcomes are at these schools. Here's their site for NIU: http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=niu

Government jobs have become extremely desirable because there are very few jobs with large law firms and government jobs qualify for extremely generous programs that pay back most law school loans. Not only that, the agencies you list are some of the most prestigious. Getting a job there will be extremely hard.

You will be asked for your GPA and LSAT scores. If your score is less than 170, everyone on here will tell you to retake the LSAT. You will reply that retaking is not an option. Everyone will respond, "of course it is. Going to a better law school is the only way you'll have a chance at achieving your goals of a government job."

[Winston1984]

Retake.

[Mack.Hambleton]

what are your stats?

[cron1834]

If someone were paying me to go to school, I would make sure I wasn't wasting their money and mine on schools with low employment scores. Aim for higher than this by getting a better LSAT score. You're not going to be getting Federal employment from any of these schools without a miracle.

However, if you're comfortable working in a low-prestige prosecuting gig, your school matters less. Being from Illinois, I've browsed backgrounds of prosecutors in many jurisdictions, and lots of them come from regional schools in the state. However, since you're also from Illinois, you know very well that the state fiances (and those of most counties) are in the shitter, and it's not 1999 anymore. Hiring is tough all over.

Bottom-line: I'd try to go to better schools than this.

[Winston1984]

I realize that retaking the LSAT would be the usual route to a better school, but I have quite an unusual situation. From elementary-high school, I've been offered additional testing time because my short term memory (retrieval fluency) ranks in the <30th percentile. However, I always viewed that number as a negative stigma, and always chose to decline any accommodations offered to me (stupid me). The way in which I got by in school was by simply spending more time reading, and by my very strong (99th percentile) verbal reasoning abilities. Basically, because I have a short term memory deficiency, I have to re-read passages and paragraphs at times. In school, this translates into spending a couple extra hours each week reading, which I realize is mandatory for me to succeed. However, the LSAT is timed and does not afford me the ability to "re-read". I've applied for accommodations, but they were declined. LSAC basically thinks that since I didn't use the accommodations offered to me in school (because of the negative stigma and embarrassment), that I don't need them now. I've taken the LSAT several times with the additional time specified by the educational psychologist who evaluated me and regularly scored in the mid 160's.

I am sorry that this is the case, but law school may not be for you. If you have to pay sticker at these schools, you will most likely not find a job. What was your score? You may not be able to hit 170, but I'm sure there is room for improvement.

[timbs4339]

You may be able to find a job with a local DA office (and not Cook County, think much smaller) out of DePaul or NIU. Maybe. But it sounds like you want more policy oriented work, or at least more headline grabbing work. Think more seriously about not attending law school, because you've listed three of the most competitive, desirable agencies in the federal government. I'm not even sure if the FBI or CIA hire entry-level lawyers, and DOJ barely hires anyone.

[TheSpanishMain]

Do you have any military experience? JAG is very selective, especially for non-veterans. Something like 10% of the people who apply to JAG actually get it, IIRC. There's nothing wrong with being interested/pursuing it, but you're making it sound like you just sign up on a clipboard and away you go.

It's not something you "participate in", like an extracurricular group or something. Being in the military is very much a full time commitment, and involves giving up a lot of independence with regard to where you live/what you do.

[timbs4339]

Let me clarify a few things.

1. I don't expect to be hired by any of the agencies I listed above right out of LS, I know that I would need several solid years of work at a local DA or other similar agency before trying to move up
2. I've talked to several community members (County board member, a judge, a few very successful lawyers) and they all state that the law school that you attend means very little in the eyes of a prospective employer after a few years working in the field. Basically, after I were to work 3-5 years, the law school I will have attended no longer matters to any future employer. Only my work experience that I have gained since graduation.
3. How much of an impact can participating in the JAG program help me in terms of gaining a federal government job post JAG participation?

Thanks!

Wrong. The law school you attend means very little after a few years in the workforce to other people working in the types of jobs you already have. If you are already in biglaw and want to move to another biglaw firm, school won't matter as much, but if you want to move from a small PI firm to a biglaw firm, it absolutely does. It's the same with being a prosecutor. DOJ hires a few people out of elite law schools, a few people out of elite clerkships, and many people out of biglaw. Once you are off this track you will not get back on. And DePaul/NIU essentially mean that you're about to roll over when you pull out of the station.

The FBI/CIA don't hire trial prosecutors. They don't need to. That's what the DOJ is for. Those agencies hire policy wonks to tell them in which countries it's ok to electrocute someone's balls.

If you are going to NIU/DePaul, disabuse yourself of any notion of working for the federal government unless you become a Congressperson.

If you think this sucks, then you're right. Law always is, has been, and will be a prestige obsessed profession, where failing to jump through the right hoop at the right time closes a lot of doors for you. Don't spend a lot of money to learn that the hard way.

[TheSpanishMain]

Also, yeah, the FBI/CIA has no need for prosecutors.

[TheSpanishMain]

I know this doesn't really answer your question, but FWIW, none of those schools are a good option at those prices. You're right that DA type jobs tend to be less focused on school prestige, but they're still competitive and you don't want to be making payments on six figure debt on a 50-60k starting salary.

What are your stats?

[HP5450]

Truth be told you can do this. You can go to law school and end up with a bunch of debt and work for some county prosecutor's office in some random place. You probably won't end up with the DOJ any other major federal agency with a degree from one of these schools, although it's possible. The reality is that the odds will be against you, and it's probably a bad financial choice for you to go to law school.

I'm sorry about your poor short-term memory. I find the accommodation thing to be rather idiotic for non-physical disabilities anyway, but I can understand your frustration. The reality is that once you're outside the T14, especially if it's down bellow T30, you're looking at local and regional law schools that don't really send people out of their state or region, at least not in the "yippee, I got a job at OCI hundreds of miles away" way. So the geographic location should drive your choice when choosing between these low ranked schools.

[Nomo]

I've been reading up on the JAG program through the USAF. If I were to serve for a few years after completing the program, would that not increase my chances of obtaining a government job?

JAG program is very competitive. You're unlikely to get in. USAF is probably the most competitive. Better shot with the Army, but still very unlikely you get it.

[Nomo]

2. I've talked to several community members (County board member, a judge, a few very successful lawyers) and they all state that the law school that you attend means very little in the eyes of a prospective employer after a few years working in the field. Basically, after I were to work 3-5 years, the law school I will have attended no longer matters to any future employer. Only my work experience that I have gained since graduation.

First, backdooring your way into the big firms, policy work, the FBI, etc. from a county prosecutor position and a low-ranked school in your resume isn't likely. The vast majority of county prosecutors go into small private practices (often solo) doing small time civil and criminal defense work. Even if you went to Harvard, clerked for a federal judge, and worked for a V5 firm in New York you still couldn't bank on getting a DOJ job - there just aren't that many.

Second, its a very serious possibility that you never get to work 3-5 years in any legal job. A lot of people at those schools don't find full-time work. Check the LST reports.

[DarkHorse91]

Luckily, I didn't listen to any of this advice. I earned both JD and LL.M degrees from DePaul, focusing on International and Aviation law. I landed a sweet gig in house at a Fortune 50 and work 40 hours a week.

Anything is possible!

[nixy]

Congrats, that’s sincerely great.

How about your classmates? How are they doing? How do their salaries compare their debt load?

[QContinuum]

Congrats, that’s sincerely great.

How about your classmates? How are they doing? How do their salaries compare their debt load?

+1 to nixy's congrats & questions. I'd also be interested to hear what your law school GPA was and whether you were able to leverage any strong "boost" factors (e.g., URM status, family/personal connection) in your job search. Also, what happened to your original goal of working for the FBI, CIA, DOJ, or other similarly prestigious federal agency?

We're all pleased to hear of your success. Despite what you and some others may think, no one on TLS is rooting for law school grads to end up jobless or destitute. Quite the contrary; we'd all be over the moon if landing an in-house Fortune 50 gig was the typical DePaul outcome.

[LSATWiz.com]

I would add the argument is not that it is impossible to get a good outcome from these schools, but that OP would have gotten the same outcome from a better school and had a significantly better shot at doing so.

Arguing OP's success hurts this argument is tantamount to arguing that the fact the Milwaukee Brewers had a great deal of success without Christian Yelich proves they are a better team without Christian Yelich.

[QContinuum]

I would add the argument is not that it is impossible to get a good outcome from these schools, but that OP would have gotten the same outcome from a better school and had a significantly better shot at doing so.

A critical point. So many (mostly) 0Ls misrepresent TLS as claiming that a good or even decent outcome is impossible out of a low-ranked law school. TLS has never made such a claim. It's entirely possible to do well out of a low-ranked school - just very statistically improbable, to the point where paying six figures to chase that slim possibility of success is objectively an unwise investment of money and time.

[LSATWiz.com]

I would add the argument is not that it is impossible to get a good outcome from these schools, but that OP would have gotten the same outcome from a better school and had a significantly better shot at doing so.

A critical point. So many (mostly) 0Ls misrepresent TLS as claiming that a good or even decent outcome is impossible out of a low-ranked law school. TLS has never made such a claim. It's entirely possible to do well out of a low-ranked school - just very statistically improbable, to the point where paying six figures to chase that slim possibility of success is objectively an unwise investment of money and time.

Yes, it's funny because the backlash coming from those wishing to attend these schools is reminiscent of the backlash I face when I give my lectures on the historicity of the Exodus to religious congregations. With the latter, the backlash and manipulation of the argument I'm presenting is expected going in as the topic is sensitive to the audience's core identity. The fervency with which people defend institutions that are only interested in them for their money is strange, because one's core identity is likely not rooted in attending DePaul, Duke, or any other institution.

Whereas one's religious beliefs are rooted into them from their developmental stages and no one faith is objectively better than another, one's relationship with a law school accepting them is generally limited to one mailed letter/e-mail and some law schools are objectively better than others. The fervency with which schools are supported to the point of breaching basic logic principles suggests something about human psyche, and from a practical standpoint, how to market a product to best manipulate the target audience. It speaks a lot to how quickly people can internalize something external to their reality into their sense of self.