Chicago vs. Penn for PI Forum

[DementedPotato]

Hi,

It's my first time posting. I am choosing between UChicago and UPenn for Public Interest Law or Educational Law/Policy. I could be swayed to consider clerkships/academia as well. I have also been admitted to Michigan with a $10,000 per yer package, Berkeley, Georgetown, and USC with 135k. I put these up in case people feel that there is a strong reason to consider them with UChicago or Upenn. I am fortunate enough to have my parents front the bill for law school for me, so money is not a huge consideration other than allaying my guilt for this fact. I am being held at Columbia and would strongly consider it over UChicago and UPenn, if I were to get in. I am going to both UPenn and UChicago for their admitted students weekends.

UChicago
+I hear it's good for clerkships/academia
+Smaller class size, which I like
+Professors seem awesome
+Seems to be in a higher tier than UPenn, which may or may not end up meaning something?

-for personal reasons, I would like to stay close to Boston while in law school (manageable drive)
-Not really into Law and Econ, kind of worried it will color my experience there
-Seems like it's not as strong in PI, clinics don't seem very interesting.
-Doesn't have a top ten Ed. Program, wouldn't be able to take classes in other contents as easily.
-I've heard the social scene is not as great as other schools? But I also heard this doesn't pan out in reality. I'm a very social, easy-going person.

UPenn
+Close to Boston
+Student body seems really cool
+You can do a masters in Ed. Policy while in law school (they have a very good program)

-In a lower tier than Chicago, which, once again may not mean much
-Not as strong in placing in clerkships or academia, in case I wanted to go down that route.
-Seems to be a place for Big Law, worried about feeling isolated.

Anyways, I realize that I will probably learn a lot at the ASW, and it will probably greatly help me make my decision. Thank you for helping me out!

Cheers,
DP

[CanadianWolf]

Seems as though you've already decided on Penn if not admitted to Columbia. Visit both Chicago & Penn during ASW, then decide.

[DementedPotato]

Seems as though you've already decided on Penn if not admitted to Columbia. Visit both Chicago & Penn during ASW, then decide.

I'm surprised that preference was so apparent in my post...I may prefer it slightly but I hate to say that it's hard to turn down a school in a higher tier like Chicago.

I already know my opinion , I'm asking on TLS because I'm hoping to get some information or considerations I haven't thought of in favor of one or the other.

[WheninLaw]

Not sure what it means that you could be swayed on clerkships/academia. Either that is something you are interested in or not. If so, that is an enormous plus in UoC's favor. If not, and you really want to be near Boston, go to Penn.

[sjgonzalez3]

I think you may have hit the nail on the head about feeling isolated at Upenn for PI. Their employment numbers (see Law School Transparency) for PI are appalling. And although this is likely due to self-selection, this will mean less peers at the school, less alumni in the industry, and less robust resources available at the school for your chosen career path.

Since you are toying with the idea of clerkships & academia as well, the choice seems entirely too obvious for me. I can see wanting to live in Philly over Chicago, but the other factors are pretty overwhelming. I think you'll find many more like-minded individuals and greater support at Uchicago, as well a slightly higher caliber of people in general based on their admissions stats and student/faculty relationship focus.

Obviously this is all 0L speculation based upon the available data and anecdotes on the internet; but, you know what they say about stereotypes (there's often some truth to them).

Hope this helps.

[jbagelboy]

Two considerations: first, Berkeley is arguably better than either of these for the PI you're interested in, but I recognize that is way farther away from Boston.

Second, if you are truly committed to public interest, why use your parents money? Take out loans and have them forgiven via LRAP, and just use a little of your parents money for extra living expenses/paying off whatever you end up needing to. You could save $150,000 of your parents money - even millionaires can appreciate those sums in this economy.

Worst case scenario, you go into biglaw and your parents pay the loans anyway; they might lose a few thousand more on interest but if you are more than 50% committed to PI, the expected cost of all possible scenarios is way in federal loans' favor. Just something to think about.

[jbagelboy]

Also re: penn, they've had a temporary spike in large firm hiring, but it seems to be normalizing - see the 2013 NLJ numbers released last week.

And why is NYU not here?

[DementedPotato]

Second, if you are truly committed to public interest, why use your parents money? Take out loans and have them forgiven via LRAP, and just use a little of your parents money for extra living expenses/paying off whatever you end up needing to. You could save $150,000 of your parents money - even millionaires can appreciate those sums in this economy.

Definitely considered that. LRAP is pretty generous at UPenn and UChicago, no?

And why is NYU not here?

I haven't heard anything from them...my application has been complete since before Christmas...no update. I guess I'm just kind of pessimistic about even getting in.

Thanks for the help!

[DementedPotato]

Not sure what it means that you could be swayed on clerkships/academia. Either that is something you are interested in or not.

I am interested...I just don't know if I will ultimately end up going that way or not.

[Nelson]

You have a really weird set of criteria. You realize you almost certainly aren't going to end up working as an ed policy lawyer right? If you want to work in ed policy, just get an M.Ed from GSE (or the grad school of your choice).

The difference between these two schools for clerkships is negligible. The class size isn't that significant either, since Penn is also on the smaller size for the T14, it's like a 100 per class difference. Penn is not what I would call close to Boston at all (not that Chicago is closer, but Penn is not close). I wouldn't really think of GSE as a big plus in Penn's favor. I guess you might take like 1-2 classes total in three years? A joint degree in ed policy is a huge waste of money and time for a lawyer. For PI, these schools are going to be fungible. There's going to be a hardcore group of PI folks in a sea of future biglaw associates. Institutional support in the forms of summer grants, clinics, and post-grad fellowships is going to be roughly equivalent.

I really don't think your criteria are particularly good ones to be making this decision on. You should take the money at Berkeley in my opinion. I guess if you're dead set on these two schools, assuming equal cost, go to Chicago for the marginally better clerkship placement and shoot the moon chance at academia.

[DementedPotato]

You realize you almost certainly aren't going to end up working as an ed policy lawyer right? If you want to work in ed policy, just get an M.Ed from GSE (or the grad school of your choice).

I work as an administrator at a charter school...a law degree can mean something in this field...

Penn is not what I would call close to Boston at all (not that Chicago is closer, but Penn is not close).

I live in Boston, and am from Pittsburgh...Philly is like a 5 hour drive from Boston...I've done it multiple times since I have extended family in Philly. I consider that close.

You should take the money at Berkeley in my opinion.

I don't have any money at Berkeley.