Three-Year HSCCN Job Matrix Forum

[iamgeorgebush]

I was just thinking that since you can only look at LST Score Reports data one year at a time and stats can drastically change from year-to-year (for example: NYU clerkships from 10.9% to 5.6% in one year), it would be nice to be able to see a few years of data all at once, in a way that captures the sum of "desirable jobs." Hence the below.

Some notes/caveats:

(1) All data comes from LST Score Reports.
(2) The data do not distinguish between desirability of desirable jobs. Not all 101+ lawyer firm jobs are created equal, nor are all PI/gov't and federal clerkships.
(3) These data do not include prestigious jobs at boutique firms like Susman and Keker, which are surely desirable as well.
(4) All the other standard caveats that apply to comparing schools through LST.
(5) School-funded jobs are subtracted from the PI/gov't jobs, since most of the school-funded positions are PI/gov't ones and school-funded jobs can hardly be considered "desirable." UPDATE: To address certain objections, school-funded jobs are not subtracted from the PI total in the second set of data.
(6) "Business" jobs may not always be desirable jobs; in fact, at worse schools, they are usually not very desirable. I chose to include them because at schools of HSCCN's caliber, it is my understanding that many of these jobs are of the MBB/bulge bracket ibanking/etc. sort, i.e., desirable. But averages both with and without business jobs are included.

Suggestions for improvement welcome.

DATA SET #1 (with school-funded jobs subtracted):




DATA SET #2 (without school-funded jobs subtracted):

[midwest17]

I don't get this: "school-funded jobs can hardly be considered "desirable.""

My understanding is that in PI, school-funded jobs are often very desirable because they get you in the door at organizations that are very unlikely to hire people otherwise. A lot of the PI threads recommend post-grad school-funded fellowships as a major factor in deciding which school to go to.

[Big Dog]

Not all 101+ lawyer firm jobs are created equal

Which is why I prefer using ABA data to cut it at 250+, particularly if "desirable" means paying off Big Debt. While the 100/250 doesn't make much difference to the top handful of law schools (since most jobs are 250+), such a line of demarcation can be valuable further down the food chain. (Yes, such a cut ignores boutiques that pay Big Law salaries, but it also eliminates mid-law jobs; thus, more conservative if seeking best chances for a "Desirable" outcome.)

[kartelite]

Any reason not to include Yale? I think the breakdown of Y grads would be interesting to see as well.

[iliketurtles123]

I don't get this: "school-funded jobs can hardly be considered "desirable.""

My understanding is that in PI, school-funded jobs are often very desirable because they get you in the door at organizations that are very unlikely to hire people otherwise. A lot of the PI threads recommend post-grad school-funded fellowships as a major factor in deciding which school to go to.

It's the fact that it's probably not the 1st or 2nd choice for many. There are some legitimate school-funded jobs. However, it's hard to weed out those who went into school-funded jobs knowing they wanted to and those who did because they struck out in OCI. I would say there are very few people shooting for school-funded jobs outside of PI heavy schools like NYU (though I could be wrong). As far as data is concerned, a) it's better to be conservative b) this type of data is usually used to get a ballpark figure of "for a competitive job (biglaw or the like), what % of the class is able to obtain it?"

[twenty]

Yale's data is dumb because "only 82% of its grads are in full-time legal work," five percentage points of which are in school-funded jobs. That's not really helpful to this graph.

[midwest17]

I don't get this: "school-funded jobs can hardly be considered "desirable.""

My understanding is that in PI, school-funded jobs are often very desirable because they get you in the door at organizations that are very unlikely to hire people otherwise. A lot of the PI threads recommend post-grad school-funded fellowships as a major factor in deciding which school to go to.

It's the fact that it's probably not the 1st or 2nd choice for many. There are some legitimate school-funded jobs. However, it's hard to weed out those who went into school-funded jobs knowing they wanted to and those who did because they struck out in OCI. I would say there are very few people shooting for school-funded jobs outside of PI heavy schools like NYU (though I could be wrong). As far as data is concerned, a) it's better to be conservative b) this type of data is usually used to get a ballpark figure of "for a competitive job (biglaw or the like), what % of the class is able to obtain it?"

The choice doesn't seem conservative to me so much as biased. Schools with more students in school-funded positions probably offer more, yes? And thus are probably more desirable for people going into PI (especially non-prestigious PI)

[kartelite]

Yale's data is dumb because "only 82% of its grads are in full-time legal work," five percentage points of which are in school-funded jobs. That's not really helpful to this graph.

Isn't that in line with the other schools listed here? And pardon my ignorance, but what's a "school-funded job"? Teaching? Something like a university-run clinic? What are the other 18% doing? It's for precisely this reason that I think including the school would be helpful (particularly if outcomes are substantially different than those of other schools).

[worldtraveler]

Yale's data is dumb because "only 82% of its grads are in full-time legal work," five percentage points of which are in school-funded jobs. That's not really helpful to this graph.

Isn't that in line with the other schools listed here? And pardon my ignorance, but what's a "school-funded job"? Teaching? Something like a university-run clinic? What are the other 18% doing? It's for precisely this reason that I think including the school would be helpful (particularly if outcomes are substantially different than those of other schools).

Some schools offer temporary fellowships to work with the government, a non-profit, or sometimes a school clinic.

[iamgeorgebush]

Any reason not to include Yale? I think the breakdown of Y grads would be interesting to see as well.

Well, I think Yale is a beast of its own. For the c/o 2012, the sum of its "desirable jobs" was 77.1%, and LST lists 5% of its grads as being "not employed." Yet, if you look at Yale's raw data, only 1 graduate is listed as unemployed ("Unemployed - Not Seeking"), and 0 graduates are listed as "Unemployed - Seeking." Looking at the numbers and judging based on stereotypes and conventional wisdom (flawed as that may be), it seems that Yale grads pursue "nontraditional" career paths more often that grads from other law schools. Almost half of those listed in the "unemployed" camp are actually pursuing graduate degrees, which for Yale probably means pursuing academia. These people wouldn't be counted in the "desirable jobs" analysis, and that seems misleading to me.

Or maybe I didn't include Yale b/c this started as my personal research into law schools' employment outcomes, Yale wasn't relevant since they rejected me.

eta: kartelite: you can look at Yale's raw data if you want a more accurate picture into what its grads are doing.

[iamgeorgebush]

I don't get this: "school-funded jobs can hardly be considered "desirable.""

My understanding is that in PI, school-funded jobs are often very desirable because they get you in the door at organizations that are very unlikely to hire people otherwise. A lot of the PI threads recommend post-grad school-funded fellowships as a major factor in deciding which school to go to.

That's a fair objection. My understanding was that it is the less prestigious PI jobs that you need school funding for, but I know next to nothing about entry-level PI jobs.

Here are the data without school-funded jobs subtracted:

[MissouriMisery]

Thanks for posting this! Any chance you can stretch these out to the T10 or 14?

[worldtraveler]

It's actually the most prestigious jobs that you usually need school funding for. Outside fellowships rarely fund human rights work or international stuff. It's a lot easier to get funding for legal services or non-elite government work.

[midwest17]

Thanks!

[metroidbum]

.

[moonman157]

Why is it HYS if Columbia is outperforming Harvard in terms of desirable jobs? Or are Harvard grads pursuing other desirable outcomes that don't show up in these data points?

That, and HYS has a wider variety of desirable outcomes. Columbia is great for NYC big law, but if you want something else (clerkship, government, secondary big law), HYS is going to do a much better job at getting you that

[jbagelboy]

Why is it HYS if Columbia is outperforming Harvard in terms of desirable jobs? Or are Harvard grads pursuing other desirable outcomes that don't show up in these data points?

The same % of kids at Columbia and Harvard have "desirable" outcomes, but you can't reflect the gradations of "desirability" in one percentage figure. The V10 numbers are very comparable, but more of the HLS % will have clerked first. On the upper edges, of all the kool kidz fed gov or academia jobs, a slice of Harvard grads will have slightly cooler ones.

Also remember these distinctions are largely made up by TLS.

[iamgeorgebush]

Thanks for posting this! Any chance you can stretch these out to the T10 or 14?

Sure, I'll try to work on this over the next week or so. One issue is that the "business" stat will less and less reflect desirable jobs as you go down the rankings, but it's worth a look anyway.