Harvard vs. Michigan (Darrow) vs. Minnesota (full) for MN Forum

[1001]

Goal: Private law firm in the Twin Cities. I have family and a few legal connections in that (smallish, saturated) market.

Offers:

Harvard (financial aid pending), not sure what to expect.

Michigan, full darrow plus stipend.

Minnesota, full tuition. My preferred location for family/friends/future job.

Somewhat debt averse, though I probably could handle the Harvard debt.

Honest opinions are welcome! Thanks.

[Nova]

Harvard with ties to mn is TCR.

[Winston1984]

Harvard with ties to mn is TCR. By far.

Really? Wanting to work in at a firm makes the Darrow more appealing to me. No debt, and most likely OP will be able to get back to MN. Interested in your reasoning.

[Nova]

Pay money to have significantly less pressure on grades

Would rather be a Harvard grad than be median at Mich targeting mn biglaw.

[yossarian]

My thoughts are that in a saturated secondary market, they'll hire T6s and local flagships (MN). There isn't much incentive to hire a MI grad if other top candidates are available. Meaning if s/he ends up competing with a Columbia, UChi, etc., the MI might actually be worse than MN.

That being said, MI for free is not a bad option for many people. I would take it in a heartbeat.

Also, may need to be top 40% ish at MI whereas top 60-80% would do at Harvard?

[ColbyBryant]

How are you covering the COA at Harvard? If you are less than 26 and your parents have a house that is worth >500k and/or combined income of >150k (or >180k if you have a sibling in college), you will probably get 0 grants.

If you get 0 grants and are relying on loans for the full cost of attendance, Harvard released their new 2014-2015 budget this year recommending >$81,900 budget http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/sfs/ ... udget.html.

Taking into account loan origination fees with full gradplus loans and 3.5% increases each year (note- Harvard has increased by an average of 4.5% each year for the past 10 years, so this is likely an underestimate), your total debt at repayment (meaning including interest accrued throughout school) would be $304,047. For a 10 year repayment period, this equates to $3,593 per month, for a total amount amount repaid of $431,190.

If you go to Michigan on the full darrow, and take out full loans for cost of living, all would be stafford loans. Their budget for 2013-2014 was $17016 per year for living expenses. Assuming it goes up at the same rate of per year for living, I have calculated your 3 year cost of living with interest accrued on Stafford loans as $62,933 at time of repayment. This equates to $744 per month for 10 years, or $89,250 paid back in total. More likely you would put this on a faster repayment in Big law, more like 5 years, which would equate to a total of $75485 paid back over 5 years.

tl;dr:
It would be >$350,000 more expensive for you to attend Harvard at sticker vs. Michigan with full tuition covered. It is important to have this knowledge. Best of luck with your decision.

EDIT: wow, I didn't see that you have a stipend to Michigan. How much is the stipend? This is just going to get more fun!

[jk148706]

Harvard with ties to mn is TCR. By far.

$300k+ debt > Darrow plus stipend? (I mean I get it if OP wanted academia or Boston, etc. but a MN firm?)

Or are we assuming some aid from H?

[Nova]

ok, fair.

An extra 35k/yr in loans is gonna seem like a lot more on mpls market salary (typically only120k)

[Nova]

Harvard with ties to mn is TCR. By far.

(I mean I get it if OP wanted academia or Boston, etc. but a MN firm?)

MNs biglaw market is really really small. T14 kids strike out here at a pretty high rate.

[DrStudMuffin]

I think it would be helpful if OP ranked outcomes in order of preference. For example, would you prefer to work in small law in Minnesota, or biglaw in NYC/anywhere?

[tpfennin]

Curious about how much the stipend is....

[Otunga]

0L tossing in a vote for Michigan plus stipend. Almost no loans at worse (zero loans ideally?). Go there. Hell, if you don't get Minnesota biglaw, you should get small law in Minnesota. If that isn't desirable, then there's a respectable chance at NYC biglaw. But anybody with knowledge of the Minnesota market, correct any of this. I just can't imagine attending H at sticker over Michigan plus stipend if my goal was simply "private job in Minnesota".

However, OP, when you say you "could handle" the COA at H, are you implying that family can significantly contribute to the bill? If so, that changes things a lot.

[1001]

To answer some questions:

The Michigan stipend is 7500 a year. total

My top outcome would be MN private firm, next would be big law (probably NYC, but open to other options). I probably have the resume for academia (if I chose H), but I'm really not considering that at the moment.

My parents will not be contributing, but I have no current debt, and I'm confident in being able to repay debt.

Thanks for all the great answers so far.

[whereskyle]

0L here who wants the clerkships and the shots at academia and prestigious PI that H offers. I would take Michigan's offer in a heartbeat.

[Tiago Splitter]

Michigan all the way. Minnesota might not work out right away but you can deal with that. Very possible to miss MN biglaw from Harvard too and then you're in the same spot with an extra 250k in debt.

[Otunga]

To answer some questions:

The Michigan stipend is 7500 a year.

My top outcome would be MN private firm, next would be big law (probably NYC, but open to other options). I probably have the resume for academia (if I chose H), but I'm really not considering that at the moment.

My parents will not be contributing, but I have no current debt, and I'm confident in being able to repay debt.

Thanks for all the great answers so far.

If biglaw isn't the #1 priority (or any other 'prestigious' work), it'd be tough to support H here.

[ColbyBryant]

For completion sake, adding to my above post with using $7500 per year living stipend and still taking out remainder of max living expenses, we have a total indebtedness at repayment of $37017 at U Mich. On big law thats about 40k over 3 years.

If you keep the same approximate monthly repayment...

Harvard sticker: $431,190 total over 10 years. ($3593 per month)
Michigan Darrow and stipend: About 38k Paid off entirely in 11 months at $3491 per month

Total difference: $393,190 and an extra 9 years and 1 month of financial burden

(note- thanks to Lawschool22 for his COA spreadsheet)

[CanadianWolf]

Unless you receive decent grant money from Harvard, the more reasonable choice for one targeting the upper Midwest is Michigan with a full tuition scholarship plus $7,500 a year stipend.

[jk148706]

To answer some questions:

The Michigan stipend is 7500 a year.

My top outcome would be MN private firm, next would be big law (probably NYC, but open to other options). I probably have the resume for academia (if I chose H), but I'm really not considering that at the moment.

My parents will not be contributing, but I have no current debt, and I'm confident in being able to repay debt.

Thanks for all the great answers so far.

Im a 0L, but I'm staying with Michigan. It gives you a shot at MN and NYC biglaw and little to no debt. Is Harvard worth $250,000-$300,000 more than Michigan? I don't think it is, especially considering OP's goals

[ColbyBryant]

Im a 0L, but I'm staying with Michigan. It gives you a shot at MN and NYC biglaw and little to no debt. Is Harvard worth $250,000-$300,000 more than Michigan? I don't think it is, especially considering OP's goals

Not to be a broken record, but again, stop saying 250 to 300k. It is objectively almost 400k in OP's situation.

[jk148706]

Im a 0L, but I'm staying with Michigan. It gives you a shot at MN and NYC biglaw and little to no debt. Is Harvard worth $250,000-$300,000 more than Michigan? I don't think it is, especially considering OP's goals

Not to be a broken record, but again, stop saying 250 to 300k. It is objectively almost 400k in OP's situation.

If not worth $250,000 more ----> clearly not worth $400,000 more



But ok I will stop

[aboutmydaylight]

OP said financial aid pending at Harvard. Don't know why you guys are assuming 400k in debt. Can't make a decision until you know COA for each school you're considering.

[stevenash1313]

Anyone who say's anything other than Michigan truly doesn't know what this kind of debt means and is speaking from lala land. It would take almost max aid from Harvard for me to consider it over Michigan. Darrow is just too good of a deal.

[jk148706]

OP said financial aid pending at Harvard. Don't know why you guys are assuming 400k in debt. Can't make a decision until you know COA for each school you're considering.

Yes, aid from H could change everything

[worldtraveler]

This one is clearly Michigan unless Harvard gives a nice aid package. OP, just wait until you hear from Harvard.