NYU (sticker) v. BU (full ride) for PI Forum

[jjo972]

Long-time lurker, but this is my first time posting. I've been totally agonizing over this decision, so I'd appreciate any input!

NYU
- Sticker
- Cost of attendance will be absolutely ridiculous, almost $300K total

BU
- PI Scholarship, Full Ride + summer stipends (no academic stipulations, but a "moral obligation" to repay if I don't go into PI)
- Cost of attendance will be less than $50K total and I'll keep living with my SO which will keep costs pretty low.

My stats are 170/3.8x. I have a few years of relevant work experience, pretty average softs.

I am 100% committed to PI - legal aid, possibly government and/or non-profit work later. Absolutely no interest in big law. My only ties are in Boston and elsewhere in New England, and I'm pretty confident that's where I want to end up.

I've already paid off my undergrad debt, and I'll be paying for law school using a combination of savings and loans. No family support, but my parents' income will keep me from getting any need-based aid anywhere. I'm leaning towards BU right now, but LRAP/post-grad fellowship opportunities/atmosphere at NYU are a huge draw.

[loomstate]

did you apply to any other T14's?

[twenty]

If you are 100% certain you want direct legal services in New England, NYU and don't look back. LRAP should probably be a bigger consideration for you than for most PI-oriented people, because you'll be on it for a lot longer (fun fact: direct legal services people don't make a lot), but beyond that, your biggest consideration should be NYU's school-funded spots. Direct legal services basically never hires fresh grads, so you're going to be spending your first year or two on the school's payroll.

[pcthenls]

Please look into BU's LRAP. PM'ed you.

[TheSpanishMain]

If you are 100% certain you want direct legal services in New England, NYU and don't look back. LRAP should probably be a bigger consideration for you than for most PI-oriented people, because you'll be on it for a lot longer (fun fact: direct legal services people don't make a lot), but beyond that, your biggest consideration should be NYU's school-funded spots. Direct legal services basically never hires fresh grads, so you're going to be spending your first year or two on the school's payroll.

Why, though? I'm sure a BU grad could find a legal aid spot just as well, since AFAIK it's not considered a "prestigious" PI job. Suggesting that you need NYU's LRAP to pay for the 300k in loans you'll have to taken out to get a 40k a year job seems circular. You could just not take the loans in the first place and end up in the same gig, making LRAP a non-issue.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong and legal aid is super competitive and OP needs a T14 degree to get there, but otherwise, I don't see the point.

[worldtraveler]

OP what are the post grad fellowship options at BU? Are there any?

I would say choose BU but the postgrad funding is a huge issue.

[CanadianWolf]

BU--especially since your career goals may change during or after law school.

[twenty]

If you are 100% certain you want direct legal services in New England, NYU and don't look back. LRAP should probably be a bigger consideration for you than for most PI-oriented people, because you'll be on it for a lot longer (fun fact: direct legal services people don't make a lot), but beyond that, your biggest consideration should be NYU's school-funded spots. Direct legal services basically never hires fresh grads, so you're going to be spending your first year or two on the school's payroll.

Why, though? I'm sure a BU grad could find a legal aid spot just as well, since AFAIK it's not considered a "prestigious" PI job. Suggesting that you need NYU's LRAP to pay for the 300k in loans you'll have to taken out to get a 40k a year job seems circular. You could just not take the loans in the first place and end up in the same gig, making LRAP a non-issue.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong and legal aid is super competitive and OP needs a T14 degree to get there, but otherwise, I don't see the point.

It's less of the "T14 status" thing and more of a "NYU has amazingly good PI funding" thing. Even if we were talking about Northwestern/Duke with 90k against BU with a full ride, I'd advocate BU. The problem with direct legal services is that it is incredibly hard to break into without some substantial experience in the field -- even more so than what could be accomplished by gunning for it in law school (unlike other low-prestige PI options like DA/PD). Since OP is almost definitely going to be unemployed post-grad, would OP rather be volunteering at legal services clinics for free until he/she gets hired, or be getting paid by the school?

The only other thing that really factors into this is the cost. Obviously no debt > any LRAP, but when OP says they're 100% committed to PI and mentions "legal aid" as a top choice, I'm pretty convinced that OP doesn't think they're a special snowflake that's going to want ACLU... until a biglaw offer comes along. Legal aid is notorious for paying very poorly, and I'd be surprised if OP got above the 80k/yr LRAP cap until year 8+.

It really is very refreshing to see someone on this board thinking outside the "homg T14" bubble, though, especially when it comes to PI.

[pcthenls]

BU--especially since your career goals may change during or after law school.

If you get the BU PI scholarship you are "morally" required to repay that full scholarship if you don't do PI. The website does not say for how long. But as far as OP's career interest changing, OP is not going into biglaw from BU.

[jjo972]

Loomstate - I applied CCN-down (except for Stanford/Berkeley) for scholarship purposes, but I'm not really considering anywhere else. Mostly because of what twenty noted in terms of post-grad funding. I'm still waiting on scholarship info from almost everyone and will try to negotiate with NYU when I get it, but I'm not counting on anything.

My understanding is that direct legal services jobs aren't competitive in terms of grades or school prestige, but they require a lot of demonstrated commitment. Also since legal aid orgs. are pretty universally underfunded, the few entry-level jobs are almost always unpaid or fellowship funded (which I'd cross my fingers would transition into long-term work afterwards). BU actually does give out a handful of PI fellowships to its grads every year (https://www.bu.edu/law/prospective/care ... ships.html), which might somewhat make up for the difficulty of accessing the more prestigious fellowships (Skadden/EJW/etc.) from there.

Also, definitely not going into big law. I already have experience in PI Law/legal services, and am pretty confident that interest won't shift very much.

[CanadianWolf]

Did OP receive a specific PI scholarship ? If so, then OP should edit the original post in this thread to reflect that & any stipulations attached.

If no such stipulation is attached to OP's scholarship offer from BU, then OP won't need biglaw to repay law school debt.

[worldtraveler]

Loomstate - I applied CCN-down (except for Stanford/Berkeley) for scholarship purposes, but I'm not really considering anywhere else. Mostly because of what twenty noted in terms of post-grad funding. I'm still waiting on scholarship info from almost everyone and will try to negotiate with NYU when I get it, but I'm not counting on anything.

My understanding is that direct legal services jobs aren't competitive in terms of grades or school prestige, but they require a lot of demonstrated commitment. Also since legal aid orgs. are pretty universally underfunded, the few entry-level jobs are almost always unpaid or fellowship funded (which I'd cross my fingers would transition into long-term work afterwards). BU actually does give out a handful of PI fellowships to its grads every year (https://www.bu.edu/law/prospective/care ... ships.html), which might somewhat make up for the difficulty of accessing the more prestigious fellowships (Skadden/EJW/etc.) from there.

Also, definitely not going into big law. I already have experience in PI Law/legal services, and am pretty confident that interest won't shift very much.

I would 100% take BU. I really can't even explain what it feels like to have that amount of debt hanging over your head. For your interests, the prestige is not worth it.

And the prestigious fellowships will be difficult from every school. EJW is really not prestige obsessed so your chances will be roughly the same anyway. And no one should make a huge decision based on a small increase in probability of getting a Skadden.

I'm also don't know that much about BU, but I do interview candidates for PI summer internships. We hire almost exclusively from the T14 but have always had good BU and BC candidates and so make it a point to recruit there because we always got applicants with great PI resumes (turned out they all had the full ride PI fellowship). So really if your resume is already pretty strong, that is a good sing.

[twenty]

I'm actually going to defer to WT here -- at the point where she went to Berkeley (which has fairly good school funding, too) and has a kickass job doing exactly what she wanted and is still advocating BU, then hey.

[worldtraveler]

I'm actually going to defer to WT here -- at the point where she went to Berkeley (which has fairly good school funding, too) and has a kickass job doing exactly what she wanted and is still advocating BU, then hey.

The difference is OP doesn't want what I wanted. If he said he wanted to do international work, then NYU all the way. So long as BU has post-grad fellowships, which they apparently do, then definitely BU.

[jjo972]

Yes, it is a PI scholarship and the original post is edited. Thanks for pointing that out. But this really isn't a concern for me - even though legal services is what I'm really interested in, if things worked out really poorly after law school, I would way rather go into non-legal PI work than non-PI legal work.

Thanks for all of your replies so far, it's really helpful to have this input! I think you're all pretty much reinforcing where I was leaning anyway.

[TheSpanishMain]

My vote is definitely for BU.

[Otunga]

That NYU number is fucking nuts. To the people with PI knowledge, does NYU give any significant advantage for the job(s) OP wants to pursue? Of course, provided it did, I'd still probably advocate BU here. Looking at those loans over your head while you're working in your low-paying job has to be stressful. If something happens and you can't work for whatever reason, what does NYU's LRAP say about that? If you were out of work for a certain period of time, and then had to pay the loans back the 'regular' way, that's awful.

[actexas]

To compare money? Then wait until you get financial package from NYU.
I also tried to compare between Duck and UT Austin (Instate + $25,000) myself.

[cotiger]

To compare money? Then wait until you get financial package from NYU.
I also tried to compare between Duck and UT Austin (Instate + $25,000) myself.

Quack.

[Law Sauce]

How could this be anything other than BU. Seems absolutely perfect for OP's goals and location preferences. Obviously hustle and build your resume but no debt at BU is far superior to paying sticker and counting on LRAP (what if you get fired, or are out of work for personal reasons, then LRAP stops).

You need the flexibility of little to no debt and you don't want the careers that are more closed off from BU. I'd guess more people do Legal Aid/DA/etc. from BU then from NYU anyway. Not to mention that you seem like a driven and committed individual who can build their resume and show commitment from day 1, thus, you will be fine from BU. Go there as long as you can keep the debt down.

[Ohiobumpkin]

BU, and this is not even a question. LRAP or not, $300k worth of debt is insane. INSANE. It's true what Twenty said about NYU being well known for their PI placement, but that does not justify the $300k price tag. Take the PI scholarship at BU and go to law school knowing that at worst you are going to have a professional degree without a job, but also no debt. Congratulations!

[0913djp]

BU is the right choice here given your likely return to New England. Just make sure to hustle, as Twenty said earlier.

It was hard for me to turn down the same scholarship but I just didn't want to build my career in Boston.

[worldtraveler]

Guys LRAPs don't just go away if you're out of work. You are allowed to jump on and off.

[twenty]

Guys LRAPs don't just go away if you're out of work. You are allowed to jump on and off.

NYU's allows it, but many of them don't -- Georgetown, UCLA and UVA immediately come to mind.

[Law Sauce]

Guys LRAPs don't just go away if you're out of work. You are allowed to jump on and off.

Not always true, but apparently it is for NYU, so fair point.