UMD v. CUNY ($$$$) v. American ($) v. Howard ($$$) Forum

[slayer47]

-The schools you are considering
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships. Here is a helpful calculator.
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
-Your general career goals
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
-How many times you have taken the LSAT

Hi everyone! I would love some feedback from you all because I am really struggling with this decision. Let's start off by saying I'm not going to be retaking the LSAT and I am going in the fall, so it's just a matter of deciding where. I will be paying for everything on my own (loans and scholarships) and I do have a bit of debt from undergrad. I plan on entering something in the field of public interest, likely relating to women's advocacy. I hope to stay on the east coast, and DC is really where I want to be.

Here are the options:
University of Maryland: Scholarship information and financial aid pending, probably released in mid-March
Howard University: $22,250 per year
CUNY: Full tuition
American University: $10,000, applied for the full tuition fellowship for public interest students, but I haven't heard back and I'm not holding my breath on that.

I also got a half tuition scholarship at Northeastern, but I don't really have any connections to Boston, so I think that's probably not a viable choice.

GPA: 3.5
LSAT: 158 then 161
Softs: I've had six internships as an undergrad b/c I'm in school in DC.

[BigZuck]

What are all these schools going to cost you? I'm not loving any of these options right now to be honest.

If you're in undergrad right now and have a general goal of "helping people" then I would probably just try and find a job doing that rather than roll the dice on law school and start racking up a ton of debt. If your career goals/plan are more clearly defined than that then I guess I would just take whatever is the cheapest, so long as you go in with the realization that you will have to hustle your butt off and there is a very real chance that you might not ever get a job utilizing that JD.

Doesn't CUNY have a reputation of being a PI school in NY. Is that reputation real?

Make sure you retake in June just to see if you score higher and could end up with better options.

[deadpanic]

All of these options are really bad especially American. The only one I would possibly consider is UMD but that is totally dependent on the cost. I also wouldn't count on DC from UMD. Maybe CUNY (but the cost of living will be pretty absurd) but again, don't count on DC. It won't travel there.

DC is probably the most competitive market in the country so you will need to go to much better schools to break in that market as a lawyer. I know you don't want to hear it, but the best advice I can give you is to retake the LSAT. If you are unwilling to do that, you need to at least choose a new less competitive market.

If you just want to do women's advocacy, (something like policy work w/abortions I guess?) then I would recommend not going to law school and going a different route like interning with a congressman/woman. I have a good friend that is into that and law school was a bad choice for her. It's really not going to be helpful in landing you a job because there are really no paying jobs in this field from what my friend has told me and what I've seen. Good luck.

[slayer47]

All of these options are really bad especially American. The only one I would possibly consider is UMD but that is totally dependent on the cost. I also wouldn't count on DC from UMD. Maybe CUNY (but the cost of living will be pretty absurd) but again, don't count on DC. It won't travel there.

DC is probably the most competitive market in the country so you will need to go to much better schools to break in that market as a lawyer. I know you don't want to hear it, but the best advice I can give you is to retake the LSAT. If you are unwilling to do that, you need to at least choose a new less competitive market.

If you just want to do women's advocacy, (something like policy work w/abortions I guess?) then I would recommend not going to law school and going a different route like interning with a congressman/woman. I have a good friend that is into that and law school was a bad choice for her. It's really not going to be helpful in landing you a job because there are really no paying jobs in this field from what my friend has told me and what I've seen. Good luck.

I have absolutely no interest in working on the hill. I've been there and done that. My interest is more in direct legal services, and women's advocacy is certainly not restricted to reproductive rights. There are many directions I could see myself going in the field, but I'm certain that attending law school is the right choice for me. I don't want to go into policy, my interest in on the ground.

As for UMD, DC is their second largest market after MD, so I don't really get that one and I'd be interested as to why you think it's hard to get a job in DC. It's hard to get a job anywhere...

[cron1834]

As for UMD, DC is their second largest market after MD, so I don't really get that one and I'd be interested as to why you think it's hard to get a job in DC. It's hard to get a job anywhere...

JFC, are you serious? Don't you live there? There are tons of folks from schools way better than the shitholes you're considering who are struggling.

You REALLY need to do some research before making decisions. As in, what jobs possibly exist for you, how competitive they are, and what they pay. You seem absolutely clueless.

[TheSpanishMain]

As for UMD, DC is their second largest market after MD, so I don't really get that one and I'd be interested as to why you think it's hard to get a job in DC. It's hard to get a job anywhere...

Beaten, but DC is a desirable market, and you're competing with people from Georgetown and GW, not to mention people from other T14s targeting DC.

UMD only puts like 50% of it's class into legal jobs anyway, if I remember correctly. Of that, about 15% end up in DC. Getting a DC legal job out of UMD is not a likely outcome. Not impossible, of course, but unlikely enough that you'd be foolish to plan on it. Retaking the LSAT and shooting for, at minimum, GW with some $ is far and away the best option.

[mandyjay11]

Also, Howard's scholarship stipulations are kind of outrageous and I would never advise anyone to agree to them. You could quite possibly end up paying sticker or close to it for 2L and 3L which is not worth it.

[deadpanic]

All of these options are really bad especially American. The only one I would possibly consider is UMD but that is totally dependent on the cost. I also wouldn't count on DC from UMD. Maybe CUNY (but the cost of living will be pretty absurd) but again, don't count on DC. It won't travel there.

DC is probably the most competitive market in the country so you will need to go to much better schools to break in that market as a lawyer. I know you don't want to hear it, but the best advice I can give you is to retake the LSAT. If you are unwilling to do that, you need to at least choose a new less competitive market.

If you just want to do women's advocacy, (something like policy work w/abortions I guess?) then I would recommend not going to law school and going a different route like interning with a congressman/woman. I have a good friend that is into that and law school was a bad choice for her. It's really not going to be helpful in landing you a job because there are really no paying jobs in this field from what my friend has told me and what I've seen. Good luck.

I have absolutely no interest in working on the hill. I've been there and done that. My interest is more in direct legal services, and women's advocacy is certainly not restricted to reproductive rights. There are many directions I could see myself going in the field, but I'm certain that attending law school is the right choice for me. I don't want to go into policy, my interest in on the ground.

As for UMD, DC is their second largest market after MD, so I don't really get that one and I'd be interested as to why you think it's hard to get a job in DC. It's hard to get a job anywhere...

It is hard to get a job anywhere so your conclusion is that you'll ignore all the evidence and just go to any law school? I would think you would want to maximize your chances to get a job that actually pays you for having a law degree, but I guess not.

I'm really just trying to help you, but there are basically no legal service jobs like this. It's anecdotal, but I'm telling you about someone that worked in this area every single summer in DC, has an amazing resume for this field and they wait tables with their law degree and volunteer on the side. And there are probably hundreds more in this same position. But go ahead...give us an update in 3 years since you are so certain.

[timbs4339]

CUNY is unlikely to travel to DC. But if you want to do direct services (e.g. helping battered women secure orders of protection against their boyfriends/husbands, pro bono family law services), then NYC is going to have several of those agencies or non-profits that work directly with victims. Make sure to work during law school. What are the stips?

[slayer47]

CUNY is unlikely to travel to DC. But if you want to do direct services (e.g. helping battered women secure orders of protection against their boyfriends/husbands, pro bono family law services), then NYC is going to have several of those agencies or non-profits that work directly with victims. Make sure to work during law school. What are the stips?

The only requirement is keeping a 3.0.

[slayer47]

As for UMD, DC is their second largest market after MD, so I don't really get that one and I'd be interested as to why you think it's hard to get a job in DC. It's hard to get a job anywhere...

Beaten, but DC is a desirable market, and you're competing with people from Georgetown and GW, not to mention people from other T14s targeting DC.

UMD only puts like 50% of it's class into legal jobs anyway, if I remember correctly. Of that, about 15% end up in DC. Getting a DC legal job out of UMD is not a likely outcome. Not impossible, of course, but unlikely enough that you'd be foolish to plan on it. Retaking the LSAT and shooting for, at minimum, GW with some $ is far and away the best option.

Thanks for the stats, I'll keep that in mind.

[slayer47]

Also, Howard's scholarship stipulations are kind of outrageous and I would never advise anyone to agree to them. You could quite possibly end up paying sticker or close to it for 2L and 3L which is not worth it.

I didn't know that, thanks for the heads up!

[slayer47]

As for UMD, DC is their second largest market after MD, so I don't really get that one and I'd be interested as to why you think it's hard to get a job in DC. It's hard to get a job anywhere...

JFC, are you serious? Don't you live there? There are tons of folks from schools way better than the shitholes you're considering who are struggling.

You REALLY need to do some research before making decisions. As in, what jobs possibly exist for you, how competitive they are, and what they pay. You seem absolutely clueless.

It's so wonderful to hear such refined and helpful information...Being a complete asshole is not particularly helpful in this situation. I'm struggling with an important decision, and I'm interested in genuine and compelling feedback. I want to pursue a career in public service, and even if by some miracle I was accepted into a top school, saddling myself with a quarter of a million dollars worth of debt isn't something I'm interested in. I have done extensive research, for your information, and I have been receiving conflicting opinions because of my area of interest. I have had several lawyers, who went to top 20 schools, tell me to go where I get the most money so I don't spend the rest of my life drowning in debt. Others say things like only T14 schools are worth it. I just wanted more information about what's in front of me, preferably constructive and useful information, rather than the druthers of a supercilious and combative schmuck.

Why don't you go spread your wonderful words of wisdom to someone who actually gives a shit? Or perhaps you are "clueless" for failing to realize that you're an asshole armed only with inconsequential assertions?

[chuckbass]

As for UMD, DC is their second largest market after MD, so I don't really get that one and I'd be interested as to why you think it's hard to get a job in DC. It's hard to get a job anywhere...

JFC, are you serious? Don't you live there? There are tons of folks from schools way better than the shitholes you're considering who are struggling.

You REALLY need to do some research before making decisions. As in, what jobs possibly exist for you, how competitive they are, and what they pay. You seem absolutely clueless.

It's so wonderful to hear such refined and helpful information...Being a complete asshole is not particularly helpful in this situation. I'm struggling with an important decision, and I'm interested in genuine and compelling feedback. I want to pursue a career in public service, and even if by some miracle I was accepted into a top school, saddling myself with a quarter of a million dollars worth of debt isn't something I'm interested in. I have done extensive research, for your information, and I have been receiving conflicting opinions because of my area of interest. I have had several lawyers, who went to top 20 schools, tell me to go where I get the most money so I don't spend the rest of my life drowning in debt. Others say things like only T14 schools are worth it. I just wanted more information about what's in front of me, preferably constructive and useful information, rather than the druthers of a supercilious and combative schmuck.

Why don't you go spread your wonderful words of wisdom to someone who actually gives a shit? Or perhaps you are "clueless" for failing to realize that you're an asshole armed only with inconsequential assertions?

This was the best advice someone can give you. If you score high enough, you won't have to saddle yourself with a quarter of a million dollars worth of debt. Asking current lawyers is going to give you worse answers than you're going to find here. If they were hired before the market crashed, then their advice on hiring is of little use to you. If you're interested in genuine and compelling feedback, you're getting it. The schools you are considering will 9 times out of 10 not get you the job that you desire.

[cron1834]

As for UMD, DC is their second largest market after MD, so I don't really get that one and I'd be interested as to why you think it's hard to get a job in DC. It's hard to get a job anywhere...

JFC, are you serious? Don't you live there? There are tons of folks from schools way better than the shitholes you're considering who are struggling.

You REALLY need to do some research before making decisions. As in, what jobs possibly exist for you, how competitive they are, and what they pay. You seem absolutely clueless.

It's so wonderful to hear such refined and helpful information...Being a complete asshole is not particularly helpful in this situation. I'm struggling with an important decision, and I'm interested in genuine and compelling feedback. I want to pursue a career in public service, and even if by some miracle I was accepted into a top school, saddling myself with a quarter of a million dollars worth of debt isn't something I'm interested in. I have done extensive research, for your information, and I have been receiving conflicting opinions because of my area of interest. I have had several lawyers, who went to top 20 schools, tell me to go where I get the most money so I don't spend the rest of my life drowning in debt. Others say things like only T14 schools are worth it. I just wanted more information about what's in front of me, preferably constructive and useful information, rather than the druthers of a supercilious and combative schmuck.

Why don't you go spread your wonderful words of wisdom to someone who actually gives a shit? Or perhaps you are "clueless" for failing to realize that you're an asshole armed only with inconsequential assertions?

If you don't know that it's hard to get a job in DC, then you haven't done one iota of meaningful research. I'm not biglaw or bust, and I'm not T14 or bust. One simply has to read the paper to know what I posted above.

I'm sorry for my tone. I apologize for that. However, someone who doesn't know that it's hard to get a DC job and doesn't realize how bad the placement statistics are for mediocre schools has not done "extensive research." It's just not true. Cursory research would tell you this.

[mi-chan17]

For your goals, you would best off retaking and getting money at GW or managing to get the COA at American down to zero (and I mean zero entirely, not zero + COL). Right now, American is just too freaking expensive. Their employment numbers are low, DC's COL is high, and I cannot in good faith recommend it to anyone at the price you're suggesting.

CUNY and UMD will not get you DC PI, absent some really steller credentials and networking. Such steller credentials and networking that I suspect they'd have gotten you into law schools more likely to get you where you want. So I'd count those out.

As to Howard, are you URM?

[TheSpanishMain]

Why don't you go spread your wonderful words of wisdom to someone who actually gives a shit? Or perhaps you are "clueless" for failing to realize that you're an asshole armed only with inconsequential assertions?

I agree he did go a little aggro there, but to be fair, keep in mind that the questions you're asking are asked a lot on these boards, and sometimes people forget that when people are new around here, they haven't been soaking in the info for long and may ask what seem like really obvious questions. That's not a dig on you or anything, just something to bear in mind.

I think here's the basic idea for you: if you want DC, you need to go to a good school. In this case, that's Georgetown or GW, with varying amounts of $ needed. DC is just a really heavily saturated market. Georgetown also has a pretty solid loan repayment program for people working in public interest...just something to look into.

If DC is less important to you than public interest/women's advocacy work, then sure, go to CUNY or UMD if you can keep the costs way down. Just understand that it's overwhelmingly likely that you'll be working in NY/Baltimore.

Really, it's just going to depend on how you weigh your two goals.

[timbs4339]

Avoid American. Probably one of the worst value propositions in legal ed. A sub-40 employment rate. Don't believe their BS about being a "top ranked women's law" program.

[worldtraveler]

People are being unnecessarily harsh on the OP.

OP I work in this field (sort of). I do more international litigation regarding women's rights but I've done the domestic side too. Really I think your best option would be to postpone law school a year and get some postgrad experience. Americorps or work with a non-profit in any capacity would be great for you.

If you really want to go this year, CUNY is actually a good option for you. They do have a good reputation in the PI field a good network in place. It is not great and it doesn't rival an elite school, but of the options you have it is by far the best. Their curriculum is actually pretty rigorous too and IMO actually prepares you quite well for PI work. With a full scholarship, if you can keep your cost of living down then that's not a bad plan.

Just be aware that PI jobs are really impossible to get right now, outside of getting a fellowship. CUNY is fairly good at placing their grads in those, but it is by no means guaranteed. I firmly believe that any PI hopeful should plan on graduating unemployed.

DC does have a ton of PI jobs but also a lot of competition for them. You'll have an easier time if you are open to staying in NY as well. But if you know the risks and know this is what you want to do, I say go for it.

[cron1834]

I'll apologize a second time for my tone. Sorry.

However, I'm going to reiterate that much of the info OP seems to lack doesn't require in-depth knowledge of ABA reporting, nor does it require having sifted through thousands of TLS threads. To know that the job description is a long shot, to know that DC is a longshot, and to know that coinflip-employment schools aren't improving these longshots is something that my middle-American, boomer parents could tell you from reading the morning paper.

Again, my tone was unnecessary. But it is more than a little surprising that someone this far down the path towards LS, claiming to have done extensive research, didn't anticipate the substance of these responses. The DC comment just struck a chord with me, I guess, because I have some friends who are great people and are really struggling for work in DC right now.

[CanadianWolf]

CUNY.

P.S. I'm surprised at your results--assuming that you're a URM with a 161/3.5. Thought that you'd get more acceptances.

[PepperJack]

No matter where you go, the important thing is to pay as much as you can. Woman's advocacy is a booming field. When a woman is raped or discriminated against at a job interview, the self-respecting ones don't go to a DA or an employment discrimination lawyer. They go to a woman's advocate. People think they don't exist, but they said the same thing about Ghostbusters and Ghost Law is lucrative.

[worldtraveler]

No matter where you go, the important thing is to pay as much as you can. Woman's advocacy is a booming field. When a woman is raped or discriminated against at a job interview, the self-respecting ones don't go to a DA or an employment discrimination lawyer. They go to a woman's advocate. People think they don't exist, but they said the same thing about Ghostbusters and Ghost Law is lucrative.

If you are going to be an ignorant tool at least be a funny one.