NYU for federal gov? Forum

[lawschool22]

0L here considering my current options. I'm still waiting to hear from a few schools, and while I have an outside shot at HLS (was interviewed, still waiting), it is increasingly likely that I will end up at NYU. My goal after graduating is the federal government. There are a few specific agencies that I am most interested (CFPB, DOJ, a few other honors programs), but I would obviously cast a wide net. I wouldn't be opposed to working on the legislative side of things, but executive would be my first choice.

NYU is aware of this interest, and has done a lot of outreach to me relating to their supposed strength in placing graduates in these sort of positions. What I'm trying to determine is a) whether this is really true, and b) whether the cost of NYU would be worth it over lower T14's with better scholarships.

As far as my first question is concerned, does NYU have a measurable advantage over non-T6 schools as it relates to federal government employment? I have heard mixed messages on this. Some say that federal government folks are not overly concerned with prestige, and are more concerned with your commitment to PI, grades, and the overall impression you make on them. Others have said that prestige is important (for certain jobs, such as DOJ), but even more important than name is the network that you can tap into at the top schools. This is something that NYU was pushing, that they have great faculty connections who can act as references for internships, full-time positions, etc. NYU also pointed to its dedicated PI career services office, as another example of something that sets it apart for students interested in this area. Any thoughts on these factors?

The answer to my first question will probably help answer the second. But assuming NYU does have some advantage, I'm trying to decide if it is worth the increased cost over other schools. I'm still in the negotiation process, but at the moment it is looking like my total debt at repayment for NYU will be around $210k (calculated the correct way, with capitalized interest, COA, loan fees, etc.). This will be financed entirely with loans. I have some minor rental income, but this has been factored into the calculation.

Some of the other info typically requested in these threads, I have a 173/3.6 and have taken the LSAT one time.

I know it is somewhat premature, as I still need to get final award offers, but that may not happen until late-April or early May. I'll post a true "Which School" thread at that time. This thread is mainly to answer the question of whether NYU is really in a position to get me to my goals (as they claim), and if so, is it worth it at that cost.

Thank you for your thoughts!

[kemosabe]

I'm another 0L interested in this topic. LST helps showcase things a bit when you look into job characteristics by employer type.

Here is a list of the T14 by percentage of graduates employed in government work:

GULC 14.4
UVA 9.9
Cornell 8.4
UCB 8.3
Columbia 7.9
NYU 7.3
UMich 7.0
Duke 4.4
Northwestern 4.1
Harvard 4.1
Yale 3.2
Chicago 2.3
UPenn 1.9
Stanford 1.7

Of course, it's tough to know exactly what these jobs are and whether they are in federal, state, or local government. There are also school funded fellowships to take into account. My hunch is that HYS grads snag most of the prestigious positions, with some more filtering down into the T6 and top grads from the lower T14. NYU and Columbia seem to be outliers within the T6 with such high numbers. I wonder how many of these graduates are in city government positions.

[lawschool22]

I'm another 0L interested in this topic. LST helps showcase things a bit when you look into job characteristics by employer type.

Here is a list of the T14 by percentage of graduates employed in government work:

GULC 14.4
UVA 9.9
Cornell 8.4
UCB 8.3
Columbia 7.9
NYU 7.3
UMich 7.0
Duke 4.4
Northwestern 4.1
Harvard 4.1
Yale 3.2
Chicago 2.3
UPenn 1.9
Stanford 1.7

Of course, it's tough to know exactly what these jobs are and whether they are in federal, state, or local government. There are also school funded fellowships to take into account. My hunch is that HYS grads snag most of the prestigious positions, with some more filtering down into the T6 and top grads from the lower T14. NYU and Columbia seem to be outliers within the T6 with such high numbers. I wonder how many of these graduates are in city government positions.

Yeah, the trouble with these number is one (as you point out) you don't know what type of government position it is, and two, you don't know how much of this is self-selection. GULC is at the top of the list, but I know that for a significant portion of the students there, government is the goal.

So hopefully someone can chime in with any personal experience they might have with this, either as a current student or currently employed in a similar position.

[Pneumonia]

also interested in this

[vuthy]

Add me to the "interested in this" list.

[mylifeis24]

Add me to the "interested in this" list.

Yes please. I'd also be curious about this topic for all of the CCN.

[twenty]

We've discussed this in the PI thread, I think; anyway, "bigfed" is made up of two distinct groups, the high-prestige group and the low-prestige group. The high-prestige group consists of agencies like DOJ, SEC, DOS, CIA, Bristew Fellowship etc. The low-prestige group includes HUD, EPA, DOT, etc.

For the high-prestige group, you basically need:

- HYSCCN (preferably HYS)
- Solid grades, Y being the most flexible, S/H being second most, etc.
- A killer 1L summer.
- Ideally law review.

For the low-prestige group:

- Hustle (NEVER STOP HUSTLING)
- Luck
- Ideally 0L work experience.
- An MPA wouldn't hurt at all.

From the former, HYS has a lead from the start, and everyone else kind of falls in descending order based on USNWR (correlatively), with Chicago and Berkeley marginally outperforming their peers. Going to a lower T14 does not mean you have absolutely no chance at high-prestige government, it just means that instead of having to be in the top, say, 15% of your class at Harvard to have a decent shot at DOS, now you have to be in the top ~5-8% at Cornell. Hypothetical numbers, obviously, but should demonstrate that your chances of getting high-prestige government are only slightly better at NYU than Georgetown, seeing as the odds are always against you. Basically, you will get biglaw long before you get high-prestige government.

For the latter, the key is to hustle. The only place NYU has an advantage over UC Davis is its career services office. The "purchasing power" NYU's career services offices have, especially in terms of PI/govt, is just always going to be stronger than the T1/T2 schools. Frankly, I've been really impressed with most of the T14, with the exception of Cornell -- only because Cornell is in the middle of nowhere (though the huge externship in Washington probably checks back).

To give you an idea of what that looks like, we've had a Marine from a local law school volunteer at our agency as an unpaid "legal intern" over the last year or so. When we finally posted for a JD-advantage job, we got, like, 100+ applications for the single spot. We sorted through the applications to find the Marine's app, and we didn't find it, so my supervisor then sought out the guy and got mad at him for not applying. That's not to say that anyone can just waltz into a federal building and insist on volunteering with the expectation of getting a job a year later, but your chances of getting a job with that same agency are MUCH better if you do.

For some super weird reason, my (low-prestige) agency in particular likes MPAs for their attorney hires. I don't really know why.

Personally, I would probably do NYU.

[twenty]

Incidentally, have you looked into state/local government at all? It's less sexy-sounding than bigfed, but NYU is a terrific feeder school for NYC state/local govt. Manhattan DA's office is one of the (if not the) most prestigious DA offices in the country with ADAs lateraling into AUSA spots fairly often. The starting salaries are pretty comparable to bigfed.

[mylifeis24]

We've discussed this in the PI thread, I think; anyway, "bigfed" is made up of two distinct groups, the high-prestige group and the low-prestige group. The high-prestige group consists of agencies like DOJ, SEC, DOS, CIA, Bristew Fellowship etc. The low-prestige group includes HUD, EPA, DOT, etc.

For the high-prestige group, you basically need:

- HYSCCN (preferably HYS)
- Solid grades, Y being the most flexible, S/H being second most, etc.
- A killer 1L summer.
- Ideally law review.

For the low-prestige group:

- Hustle (NEVER STOP HUSTLING)
- Luck
- Ideally 0L work experience.
- An MPA wouldn't hurt at all.

From the former, HYS has a lead from the start, and everyone else kind of falls in descending order based on USNWR (correlatively), with Chicago and Berkeley marginally outperforming their peers. Going to a lower T14 does not mean you have absolutely no chance at high-prestige government, it just means that instead of having to be in the top, say, 15% of your class at Harvard to have a decent shot at DOS, now you have to be in the top ~5-8% at Cornell. Hypothetical numbers, obviously, but should demonstrate that your chances of getting high-prestige government are only slightly better at NYU than Georgetown, seeing as the odds are always against you. Basically, you will get biglaw long before you get high-prestige government.

For the latter, the key is to hustle. The only place NYU has an advantage over UC Davis is its career services office. The "purchasing power" NYU's career services offices have, especially in terms of PI/govt, is just always going to be stronger than the T1/T2 schools. Frankly, I've been really impressed with most of the T14, with the exception of Cornell -- only because Cornell is in the middle of nowhere (though the huge externship in Washington probably checks back).

To give you an idea of what that looks like, we've had a Marine from a local law school volunteer at our agency as an unpaid "legal intern" over the last year or so. When we finally posted for a JD-advantage job, we got, like, 100+ applications for the single spot. We sorted through the applications to find the Marine's app, and we didn't find it, so my supervisor then sought out the guy and got mad at him for not applying. That's not to say that anyone can just waltz into a federal building and insist on volunteering with the expectation of getting a job a year later, but your chances of getting a job with that same agency are MUCH better if you do.

For some super weird reason, my (low-prestige) agency in particular likes MPAs for their attorney hires. I don't really know why.

Personally, I would probably do NYU.

Thanks twenty! Helpful as usual.

[lawschool22]

Thabks twenty. That is all very helpful info. I think given my goals, NYU (barring an HLS acceptance) will probably be my best bet.

As you also mentioned, the decent shot at NY govt positions is also appealing as well if I decide to go that route.

[lapolicia]

Your ability to get a government job will depend far more on what the federal budget is like and whether a hiring freeze is in place then on which of the T14 you go to. A clerkship is pretty much mandatory for DOJ these days, so don't bank on that unless their hiring goes back up to pre-budget cut levels. It is much easier to lateral into a government job then it is to get one right after law school. And don't forget that going into government means you will be without a full time job offer for two years after your peers going to firms. My guess is that like the vast majority of people in law schools like NYU who go in thinking they will work for the government, you will take the much easier law firm route. Then maybe several years down the road you will lateral into a government position. NYU does have great LRAP though, which will be a tremendous help if you do get a federal government job since your income will rapidly go up to above 80,000 but the new LRAP will still cover a big part of the payments. Note: I'm an NYU grad working in the federal government, so PM me if you have specific questions.