How much are local connections worth? Forum

[Domke]

I have narrowed down my decision to two schools. Both are regional schools with what will end up being the same COA. One is higher ranked with 10% better numbers on LST. The other I have lots of family friends who work in the legal market but not in the specific field are I would like to work.

So what is better? 10% on LST or local ties?

[timbs4339]

I have narrowed down my decision to two schools. Both are regional schools with what will end up being the same COA. One is higher ranked with 10% better numbers on LST. The other I have lots of family friends who work in the legal market but not in the specific field are I would like to work.

So what is better? 10% on LST or local ties?

In order to receive the best feedback in this forum, please provide as much of the following information in your original post as possible:

-The schools you are considering
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships. Here is a helpful calculator.
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
-Your general career goals
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
-How many times you have taken the LSAT

[Domke]

1. Lewis and Clark or Seattle U
2. COA is around 120k
3. loans, I have saving but I am planning on keeping most of it just incase
4. Pacific Northwest. I would be fine with either Seattle or Portland
5. Healthcare law or Defense I have a background in healthcare but I am drawn to the courtroom.
6. 3.4 164 (not asking if I should retake so don't bother)
7. Once

[rickgrimes69]

1. Lewis and Clark or Seattle U
2. COA is around 120k
3. loans, I have saving but I am planning on keeping most of it just incase
4. Pacific Northwest. I would be fine with either Seattle or Portland
5. Healthcare law or Defense I have a background in healthcare but I am drawn to the courtroom.
6. 3.4 164 (not asking if I should retake so don't bother)
7. Once

Everyone is going to tell you to retake or don't go to law school. Even if you get a job (a big "if" considering neither school gives you more than a 50/50 shot at finding lawyer work) it will almost certainly pay too little to justify taking out $120k in loans. Honestly, neither L&C, nor SU are really worth attending without a full ride.

[Domke]

1. Lewis and Clark or Seattle U
2. COA is around 120k
3. loans, I have saving but I am planning on keeping most of it just incase
4. Pacific Northwest. I would be fine with either Seattle or Portland
5. Healthcare law or Defense I have a background in healthcare but I am drawn to the courtroom.
6. 3.4 164 (not asking if I should retake so don't bother)
7. Once

Everyone is going to tell you to retake or don't go to law school. Even if you get a job (a big "if" considering neither school gives you more than a 50/50 shot at finding lawyer work) it will almost certainly pay too little to justify taking out $120k in loans. Honestly, neither L&C, nor SU are really worth attending without a full ride.

Thanks for not answering my question. I have done my research and am perfectly aware of the risk I am taking. Any advice about my actual question would be appreciated. If it helps you can pretend I got full ride scholarships to both schools.

[rickgrimes69]

1. Lewis and Clark or Seattle U
2. COA is around 120k
3. loans, I have saving but I am planning on keeping most of it just incase
4. Pacific Northwest. I would be fine with either Seattle or Portland
5. Healthcare law or Defense I have a background in healthcare but I am drawn to the courtroom.
6. 3.4 164 (not asking if I should retake so don't bother)
7. Once

Everyone is going to tell you to retake or don't go to law school. Even if you get a job (a big "if" considering neither school gives you more than a 50/50 shot at finding lawyer work) it will almost certainly pay too little to justify taking out $120k in loans. Honestly, neither L&C, nor SU are really worth attending without a full ride.

Thanks for not answering my question. I have done my research and am perfectly aware of the risk I am taking. Any advice about my actual question would be appreciated. If it helps you can pretend I got full ride scholarships to both schools.

Then go to where you have ties. A substantial portion of SU's 40% employed probably got jobs through their ties anyway.

[guano]

With no other options, and a goal of working shitlaw, go with connections

[Domke]

Thank you.

I hope you didn't take it personally. I have been frusterated by the lack of info on any school outside of T-14 on this site. I understand that people need to be aware of the job market after graduation but telling everyone to not go to law school unless they get a full ride (which many of them never offer) prevents any further discussion that could be valuable.

[rickgrimes69]

Bro I never said you need to go T14. I just said you're paying too much and/or going to the wrong school in Seattle.

[timbs4339]

People are not going to tell you to make objectively bad decisions. It's fine to go to a lower-ranked school and take a lower paying job, but it's not fine to take that job when your debt load is more than 2x the likely starting salary. Ever pay back 100K+ of student loans before? I seriously doubt that you want to be living like a college student well into your later 20s because the loan payments are $1500 a month.

[Domke]

People are not going to tell you to make objectively bad decisions. It's fine to go to a lower-ranked school and take a lower paying job, but it's not fine to take that job when your debt load is more than 2x the likely starting salary. Ever pay back 100K+ of student loans before? I seriously doubt that you want to be living like a college student well into your later 20s because the loan payments are $1500 a month.

You should look up PAYE.

[timbs4339]

People are not going to tell you to make objectively bad decisions. It's fine to go to a lower-ranked school and take a lower paying job, but it's not fine to take that job when your debt load is more than 2x the likely starting salary. Ever pay back 100K+ of student loans before? I seriously doubt that you want to be living like a college student well into your later 20s because the loan payments are $1500 a month.

You should look up PAYE.

Yep. Go to law school, take out 120K of debt, and wind up in a program for people in "financial hardship" (i.e. poor people) that could be taken away at any moment and leads to a massive tax bomb at the end of it, the effects of which may cause you to declare bankruptcy. Enjoy interest accruing at 9.5% a year for 20 years thanks to our wonderful variable rates.

Of course this is preferable to doing whatever you're doing now for a year and studying for an easily learnable test, because that's hard.

[worldtraveler]

People are not going to tell you to make objectively bad decisions. It's fine to go to a lower-ranked school and take a lower paying job, but it's not fine to take that job when your debt load is more than 2x the likely starting salary. Ever pay back 100K+ of student loans before? I seriously doubt that you want to be living like a college student well into your later 20s because the loan payments are $1500 a month.

You should look up PAYE.

In order to take advantage of PAYE you have to have a job. That does not happen for everyone from these schools.

You're asking people to do you a favor and give you their informed opinion. If you don't want one, don't ask.

[timbs4339]

People are not going to tell you to make objectively bad decisions. It's fine to go to a lower-ranked school and take a lower paying job, but it's not fine to take that job when your debt load is more than 2x the likely starting salary. Ever pay back 100K+ of student loans before? I seriously doubt that you want to be living like a college student well into your later 20s because the loan payments are $1500 a month.

You should look up PAYE.

In order to take advantage of PAYE you have to have a job. That does not happen for everyone from these schools.

You're asking people to do you a favor and give you their informed opinion. If you don't want one, don't ask.

Actually that's PSLF. I think you can still take advantage of PAYE even when you are unemployed as long as you submit your most recent tax return.

The more I think of it the more insane law schools are for actually trying to advertise PAYE as a good thing for their students. It's literally a program you're supposed to take advantage of if you've exhausted all deferments and the only other options are starve or flee the country.

[Domke]

People are not going to tell you to make objectively bad decisions. It's fine to go to a lower-ranked school and take a lower paying job, but it's not fine to take that job when your debt load is more than 2x the likely starting salary. Ever pay back 100K+ of student loans before? I seriously doubt that you want to be living like a college student well into your later 20s because the loan payments are $1500 a month.

You should look up PAYE.

Yep. Go to law school, take out 120K of debt, and wind up in a program for people in "financial hardship" (i.e. poor people) that could be taken away at any moment and leads to a massive tax bomb at the end of it, the effects of which may cause you to declare bankruptcy. Enjoy interest accruing at 9.5% a year for 20 years thanks to our wonderful variable rates.

Of course this is preferable to doing whatever you're doing now for a year and studying for an easily learnable test, because that's hard.

I'm sorry but I can't take you seriously. You claim to be in a T6 law school (NYU I'm guessing) and yet you couldn't procure a midlaw or State clerkship when over half of the 2012 class was employed by big law (101+). I'm sorry if school hasn't worked out for you the way you planned, I hope things turn around for you.

This remark was unnecessary. Knock it off and pay attention to what the people who are taking the time to respond to your question have to say.

[worldtraveler]

People are not going to tell you to make objectively bad decisions. It's fine to go to a lower-ranked school and take a lower paying job, but it's not fine to take that job when your debt load is more than 2x the likely starting salary. Ever pay back 100K+ of student loans before? I seriously doubt that you want to be living like a college student well into your later 20s because the loan payments are $1500 a month.

You should look up PAYE.

In order to take advantage of PAYE you have to have a job. That does not happen for everyone from these schools.

You're asking people to do you a favor and give you their informed opinion. If you don't want one, don't ask.

Actually that's PSLF. I think you can still take advantage of PAYE even when you are unemployed as long as you submit your most recent tax return.

The more I think of it the more insane law schools are for actually trying to advertise PAYE as a good thing for their students. It's literally a program you're supposed to take advantage of if you've exhausted all deferments and the only other options are starve or flee the country.

True. Still a shitty plan though.

[timbs4339]

People are not going to tell you to make objectively bad decisions. It's fine to go to a lower-ranked school and take a lower paying job, but it's not fine to take that job when your debt load is more than 2x the likely starting salary. Ever pay back 100K+ of student loans before? I seriously doubt that you want to be living like a college student well into your later 20s because the loan payments are $1500 a month.

You should look up PAYE.

Yep. Go to law school, take out 120K of debt, and wind up in a program for people in "financial hardship" (i.e. poor people) that could be taken away at any moment and leads to a massive tax bomb at the end of it, the effects of which may cause you to declare bankruptcy. Enjoy interest accruing at 9.5% a year for 20 years thanks to our wonderful variable rates.

Of course this is preferable to doing whatever you're doing now for a year and studying for an easily learnable test, because that's hard.

I'm sorry but I can't take you seriously. You claim to be in a T6 law school (NYU I'm guessing) and yet you couldn't procure a midlaw or State clerkship when over half of the 2012 class was employed by big law (101+). I'm sorry if school hasn't worked out for you the way you planned, I hope things turn around for you.

This was quite some time ago actually. And you might want to learn about a thing called "probability."

[TheSpanishMain]

Thank you.

I hope you didn't take it personally. I have been frusterated by the lack of info on any school outside of T-14 on this site. I understand that people need to be aware of the job market after graduation but telling everyone to not go to law school unless they get a full ride (which many of them never offer) prevents any further discussion that could be valuable.

This is a really silly criticism. There are tons of people here who go to non-T14 schools, including some of the mods. Almost no one here argues that the T-14 is the only way to go, ever. Going to a regional school is perfectly defensible at the right price.

Gun to my head, I guess go to L&C. It's not a great investment at that price, and climbing out of that debt will be so much worse than an LSAT retake, but whatever. At least it's not in a city with a much, much better law school it has to compete with.

[Domke]

What advice did you expect, really?

Gun to my head, I guess go to L&C. It's not a great investment at that price, and climbing out of that debt will be so much worse than an LSAT retake, but whatever. You know what the rational, right answer is and seem determined to go a different route, so go nuts. At least it's not in a city with a much, much better law school it has to compete with.

I was hoping for actual advice, which is why I initially refrained from using the schools actual names.

[TheSpanishMain]

What advice did you expect, really?

Gun to my head, I guess go to L&C. It's not a great investment at that price, and climbing out of that debt will be so much worse than an LSAT retake, but whatever. You know what the rational, right answer is and seem determined to go a different route, so go nuts. At least it's not in a city with a much, much better law school it has to compete with.

I was hoping for actual advice, which is why I initially refrained from using the schools actual names.

I edited my post to seem less douchey, but I'd just like to point out that "Retake the LSAT for $$$" IS actual advice. It's GOOD advice.

[Domke]

What advice did you expect, really?

Gun to my head, I guess go to L&C. It's not a great investment at that price, and climbing out of that debt will be so much worse than an LSAT retake, but whatever. You know what the rational, right answer is and seem determined to go a different route, so go nuts. At least it's not in a city with a much, much better law school it has to compete with.

I was hoping for actual advice, which is why I initially refrained from using the schools actual names.

I edited my post to seem less douchey, but I'd just like to point out that "Retake the LSAT for $$$" IS actual advice. It's GOOD advice.

It can be good advice. However I was not asking if I should retake. When I first got my score I did some research. 50% of the people who retake get the same score or lower. Of those that score higher, 75% of them increase by 1-2 points. I was PTing at 167-168 with a few outliers, if I did increase my score it probably wouldn't be by much. A score of 165 would be offset by a latter application so I decided not to retake. The problem was that I wasn't asking if I should retake or not.

[Synch]

You are missing, however, that TCR is to retake in June, get that 165/166, and apply early next cycle.

[Domke]

You are missing, however, that TCR is to retake in June, get that 165/166, and apply early next cycle.

Can't, I work full time and my department is being shut down in August. I would have to look for a new job if I don't go to law school this year.

[timbs4339]

You are missing, however, that TCR is to retake in June, get that 165/166, and apply early next cycle.

Can't, I work full time and my department is being shut down in August. I would have to look for a new job if I don't go to law school this year.

I see. Your two life options are "work full time at my current job forever" and "pay someone 120K to babysit me during the day."

[Synch]

You are missing, however, that TCR is to retake in June, get that 165/166, and apply early next cycle.

Can't, I work full time and my department is being shut down in August. I would have to look for a new job if I don't go to law school this year.

Anecdote: I worked full time and studied for the LSAT. Yes, it sucks, but it's worth it.

As for looking for a new job - I lost my job last July, and have been working two shitty jobs since then. I will hopefully travel a bit before law school in September. Couldn't you do something along those lines? You really don't have to go to law school this year.