Hastings ($) vs. Davis ($$) Forum

[rainluvr]

Hey Everyone,

I know this has been debated to death, but I'm having trouble deciding between Davis and Hastings. Both have given me money, but Davis gave me more ($14,500/yr vs. $29k/yr). The money saved over all three years (including what I would save on housing and everything) I estimated to be around 57k if I went to Davis.

As quaint of a town as Davis is, I really want to go to Hastings as I love the city and the campus and everything, but I'm not sure if it's worth giving up the 57k I would save. I've asked Hastings to see if they could match it, but I haven't heard back yet. As of right now I'm thinking Int'l Human Rights Law, but obviously I'd like to go to the school that'll give me the most options post grad as interests can change. I guess I'm stuck between what I want vs. what makes the most sense/is most logical.

Thoughts on the better choice?

Edit: Please don't say none. I realize there are better schools out there but waiting another year isn't an option. Davis or Hastings please.

[californiauser]

None. Retake for Berkeley/SC/UCLA.

[PRgradBYU]

In order to receive the best feedback in this forum, please provide as much of the following information in your original post as possible:

-The schools you are considering
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships. Here is a helpful calculator.
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
-Your general career goals
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
-How many times you have taken the LSAT

[Nova]

Retake >>>>>>>>>>>Davis>>>>>Hastings

International human rights law is not going to happen. Be more realistic.

[Ti Malice]

Whoo boy.

OP, in a different era, either of these schools might have been decent/good choices. In today's legal market, both are horrible. Only 46.3% of 2012 grads from Hastings had found full-time, long-term, JD-required employment (i.e., actual legal jobs) within nine months of graduation. At that time, 21.4% of the class was unemployed/seeking. Horror. Hastings used to place well in the Bay Area, but this is an incredibly competitive and oversaturated legal market. Most of the good jobs are going to YHS and Berkeley grads, along with grads from the rest of the T14. Only the top 10-15% at Hastings has any real hope of getting desirable work.

Davis is placing 60% of its class into actual legal jobs within nine months of graduation, but only the top of the class has any shot at desirable employment. Most grads who actually get jobs will end up doing shitlaw in Sacramento. Neither Davis nor Hastings JDs are portable, either, so don't think you'll just take your JD to a more accommodating legal market.

Also, please note that "international human rights law" essentially does not exist. It's just advertising gimmickry that law schools use to lure in wide-eyed 0Ls who don't know anything about the nature of legal employment. If you don't have substantial long-term connections in human rights work and you're not going to a T14 (mainly YHS), you have absolutely no chance whatsoever of working in this area. Even the few people fitting that description face long odds. There are essentially no jobs.

Don't go to either of these rancid debt traps. Retake the LSAT or pick a different career.

[rainluvr]

In order to receive the best feedback in this forum, please provide as much of the following information in your original post as possible:

-The schools you are considering
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships. Here is a helpful calculator.
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings

COA Hastings: $71,247, Davis: $66,596 (prices without scholarships/grants)
Tuition + Fees Hastings: $47,634, Tuition + Fees Davis: $49,564
Hastings Grant: $14,500/yr, Davis Grant+Scholarship: $29,000/yr, the rest will be financed through loans
I've taken the LSAT twice, but cancelled my score the 2nd time.

International human rights law is not going to happen. Be more realistic.

Like I said, I'm keeping other options open. I realize human rights work isn't the most beneficial.

[BigZuck]

Those numbers don't mean anything to us. How much debt will you be in after three years? Be sure to include tuition increases and interest on the loans.

Anyway, the correct answer is "Neither, retake." I might consider those schools under very particular circumstances when I had a full ride but you're nowhere close to that.

[052220151]

Like I said, I'm keeping other options open. I realize human rights work isn't the most beneficial.

Dude, you will not do anything resembling that from either of those schools. Retake the test.

[Motivator9]

Study your but off for two months, and you can get into a top West Coast school, or a strong regional with $$. Thing about all the debt that will cumulate by the time you graduate. Do you think it's worth it for one of those two school in this job market. Be smart!

[jbagelboy]

Study your but off for two months, and you can get into a top West Coast school, or a strong regional with $$. Thing about all the debt that will cumulate by the time you graduate. Do you think it's worth it for one of those two school in this job market. Be smart!

We need to know gpa/lsat to evaluate this statement. If Op has shit grades, they might not have a chance at splitter-unfriendly top west coast schools.

What was your LSAT score? We are here to give substantive advice -- help us help you dude. You only have 1 score, almost all of us have 2-3. Remember your audience

[jump_man]

Only 46.3% of 2012 grads from Hastings had found full-time, long-term, JD-required employment (i.e., actual legal jobs) within nine months of graduation. At that time, 21.4% of the class was unemployed/seeking.

^ These statistics are misleading. This year's entering class at Hastings will be more than 1/4 smaller than the class of 2012, and you will see completely different picture when the employment stats for the class of 2015 get published (300 graduates from 2015 v. 440 from 2012).

If you want to work in the San Francisco Bay Area, Hastings is the obvious choice. Most Davis grads end up in Sacramento/Central Valley markets. I wouldn't make any decisions until you hear back from Hastings about matching Davis' scholarship, but even then I would still probably choose Hastings over Davis.

[BigZuck]

Only 46.3% of 2012 grads from Hastings had found full-time, long-term, JD-required employment (i.e., actual legal jobs) within nine months of graduation. At that time, 21.4% of the class was unemployed/seeking.

^ These statistics are misleading. This year's entering class at Hastings will be more than 1/4 smaller than the class of 2012, and you will see completely different picture when the employment stats for the class of 2015 get published (300 graduates from 2015 v. 440 from 2012).

If you want to work in the San Francisco Bay Area, Hastings is the obvious choice. Most Davis grads end up in Sacramento/Central Valley markets. I wouldn't make any decisions until you hear back from Hastings about matching Davis' scholarship, but even then I would still probably choose Hastings over Davis.

Ugh

[californiauser]

Only 46.3% of 2012 grads from Hastings had found full-time, long-term, JD-required employment (i.e., actual legal jobs) within nine months of graduation. At that time, 21.4% of the class was unemployed/seeking.

^ These statistics are misleading. This year's entering class at Hastings will be more than 1/4 smaller than the class of 2012, and you will see completely different picture when the employment stats for the class of 2015 get published (300 graduates from 2015 v. 440 from 2012).

If you want to work in the San Francisco Bay Area, Hastings is the obvious choice. Most Davis grads end up in Sacramento/Central Valley markets. I wouldn't make any decisions until you hear back from Hastings about matching Davis' scholarship, but even then I would still probably choose Hastings over Davis.

This is a shit post and you should feel bad. No one other than HYS+B students should feel comfortable with their odds of landing a decent gig in the Bay Area ITE.

I'm assuming you're a Hastings CSO shill?

Hastings is a toilet and places like a true TTT/TTTT.

[rainluvr]

We need to know gpa/lsat to evaluate this statement. If Op has shit grades, they might not have a chance at splitter-unfriendly top west coast schools.

What was your LSAT score? We are here to give substantive advice -- help us help you dude. You only have 1 score, almost all of us have 2-3. Remember your audience

My LSAC GPA is a 3.68 and LSAT's on the low side, 155.

[timbs4339]

Like I said, I'm keeping other options open. I realize human rights work isn't the most beneficial.

Again, for the millionth time on this site, human rights law is not an option because it doesn't pay well or isn't prestigious. It's not an option because it is too prestigious and too elite. There are almost no jobs in this field. None. Nada. The jobs that do exist go to graduates of elite schools, YHS.

Do you know how many students go to law school wanting to do human rights law? Do you know how many think that because their school offers a few international law classes or some clinic, program, or center that they'll have a leg up on the competition? Hundreds, probably thousands. I'd be shocked if there were more than 50 jobs that would meet the average 0Ls perception of human rights law each year.

My LSAC GPA is a 3.68 and LSAT's on the low side, 155.

Retake. For all that is holy retake.

[nickb285]

.

[Ti Malice]

Only 46.3% of 2012 grads from Hastings had found full-time, long-term, JD-required employment (i.e., actual legal jobs) within nine months of graduation. At that time, 21.4% of the class was unemployed/seeking.

^ These statistics are misleading. This year's entering class at Hastings will be more than 1/4 smaller than the class of 2012, and you will see completely different picture when the employment stats for the class of 2015 get published (300 graduates from 2015 v. 440 from 2012).

If you want to work in the San Francisco Bay Area, Hastings is the obvious choice. Most Davis grads end up in Sacramento/Central Valley markets. I wouldn't make any decisions until you hear back from Hastings about matching Davis' scholarship, but even then I would still probably choose Hastings over Davis.

This is a shit post and you should feel bad. No one other than HYS+B students should feel comfortable with their odds of landing a decent gig in the Bay Area ITE.

I'm assuming you're a Hastings CSO shill?

Hastings is a toilet and places like a true TTT/TTTT.

Appears to be a Hastings student, based on prior posts. Naturally has a strong need to believe the very questionable proposition that those 300 people are going to get the same number of jobs as would a class of 440, resulting in a much higher percentage of students with legal employment.

[CO2016YEAH]

Four things:

1) To answer your question, choose Davis and keep cost lower. In addition, job stats are hard to argue with (more on this in point 3).

2) Get real about Intl. Human Rights Law. Start up a non-profit now, forget law school, and go about your do-gooderness. You are very much unlikely to do anything related to Intl. Human Rights Law. You stand about as good of a chance of getting involved in this field right now as you do after 3 years of law school. Start considering more realistic ways to apply and market your degree for monetary gain.

3) I will be chastised for saying this, but I don't care. The statistics referenced by other posters are, in fact, short sighted. Much full time long term hiring from schools outside of T14 happens after bar results are released, which leaves the 9 month cutoff for reporting a less than ideal picture; having said that, the best advice from practicing attorneys I have gotten is to not get stagnant in the job search and to start searching for a job now (meaning networking etc. from this point forward). Furthermore, part-time/short term work can and does, generally speaking, at some point lead to full-time long-term work. That full-time work could well be what is colloquially referred to as "shit law." Life is not easy, and climbing a career ladder is difficult in almost every field; this is nature of "the real world." (Fast forward to about a dozen posts of bla bla bla, enjoy your horrible unemployed life of debt-servitude/working crappy jobs, btw you are an idiot, so on and so forth.)

4) Your best bet is a retake. I would venture to say you can definitely crack 160 (170 is a higher mark much less attainable to the masses, but I believe a 160 is attainable if you can read and try for it). However, I know this is not advice that addresses your question and is not advice you are likely to take. In addition, less than a 10 point gain is unlikely to guarantee you the bump you would desire. Refer to points 1, 2, and 3.

I am a rising 1L, like you, but I figured I would offer my input, since you asked.

Good luck.

[Clearly]

[Ti Malice]

I will be chastised for saying this, but I don't care. The statistics referenced by other posters are, in fact, short sighted. Much full time long term hiring from schools outside of T14 happens after bar results are released, which leaves the 9 month cutoff for reporting a less than ideal picture; having said that, the best advice from practicing attorneys I have gotten is to not get stagnant in the job search and to start searching for a job now (meaning networking etc. from this point forward). Furthermore, part-time/short term work can and does, generally speaking, at some point lead to full-time long-term work. That full-time work could well be what is colloquially referred to as "shit law." Life is not easy, and climbing a career ladder is difficult in almost every field; this is nature of "the real world." (Fast forward to about a dozen posts of bla bla bla, enjoy your horrible unemployed life of debt-servitude/working crappy jobs, btw you are an idiot, so on and so forth.)

As someone attending Loyola (hopefully with a full ride), you obviously have some investment in this narrative, but it's a narrative that's much less representative of reality than the employment data. The core problem is that there are ~45,000 law grads each year fighting for just ~22,000 legal jobs.

[jbagelboy]

I will be chastised for saying this, but I don't care. The statistics referenced by other posters are, in fact, short sighted. Much full time long term hiring from schools outside of T14 happens after bar results are released, which leaves the 9 month cutoff for reporting a less than ideal picture; having said that, the best advice from practicing attorneys I have gotten is to not get stagnant in the job search and to start searching for a job now (meaning networking etc. from this point forward). Furthermore, part-time/short term work can and does, generally speaking, at some point lead to full-time long-term work. That full-time work could well be what is colloquially referred to as "shit law." Life is not easy, and climbing a career ladder is difficult in almost every field; this is nature of "the real world." (Fast forward to about a dozen posts of bla bla bla, enjoy your horrible unemployed life of debt-servitude/working crappy jobs, btw you are an idiot, so on and so forth.)

As someone attending Loyola (hopefully with a full ride), you obviously have some investment in this narrative, but it's a narrative that's much less representative of reality than the employment data. The core problem is that there are ~45,000 law grads each year fighting for just ~22,000 legal jobs.

The shtick about jobs outside of OCI at non-T13s holds some water in certain respects though. Regional T1s have far smaller OCIs by firms per student relative to top schools, and many legal jobs are thus acquired outside of that narrow 2L fall window. Regional schools are typically located near firms in their target market, or directly in the major metropolitan areas, and successful networking takes place in more variable ways throughout 2L & 3L -- I know at schools like UMN, very few students obtain work via OCI (like 10%) because the majority of twin cities employers are accessible to the student body in other ways (compare this to say, Cornell, where firms coming to campus is critical with no major adjacent market).

The problem with CO2012's statement here to me is not the proposition that good jobs are lined up at many regional schools outside of OCI -- its that for Davis and Hastings, 1) the "region" for this close access to firms and legal employers is an incredibly difficult market where the legal positions Im referring to above are practically non-existent, and 2) they are not the major players in that metropolis: Cal and SLS grads will have first pickings at everything (again, compare this to UGA, UMinnesota, UT Austin, even something like U West Virginia, where at minimum the school is dominant in its home market). IMHO Davis and Hastings especially are just fucked