University of Akron School of Law Forum

[dominicmassue]

Longtime lurker. I want to stay in the midwest for school and practice in Michigan. I have no interest in biglaw or prestigious clerkships. Interested in PA/PD and want to do trial litigation and maybe some appellate work in the future. Deciding between MSU at sticker (with possibility of merit after 1L) or Akron with a full scholly (and yes, I know the stips). I've done a lot of research and I'm leaning towards Akron. Any insight? Specifically any Akron students or grads that have ended up in Michigan? I know the degree is solid in Northeast Ohio, but what about regional?

[Another]

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[Ti Malice]

Yes, do tell. OP, are you aware that 79% of Akron students that entered in the fall of 2011 did not retain their scholarships?

Only ~40% of graduates from Akron and MSU are finding full-time, long-term, JD-required employment (actual lawyer jobs) within nine months of graduation. Do not attend either of these festering dumps. Retake the LSAT.

[BigZuck]

This is a really bad law school. You're going to have a hard enough time getting a lawyer job period (only 40ish percent chance) let alone one out of state. Look: http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... b=location

Retake if you want to be a lawyer, your current options aren't good enough.

[dominicmassue]

They just changed the stips from top 15% retains full scholly to top third. Over 2.8 GPA to keep half scholly.

[dominicmassue]

Well they do have a top ten trial team. Does that not mean anything?

[Ti Malice]

They just changed the stips from top 15% retains full scholly to top third. Over 2.8 GPA to keep half scholly.

Okay. So they've gone from worst in the country to just awful in that regard. Still not worth it.

Well they do have a top ten trial team. Does that not mean anything?

Flame?

In case not, it means absolutely nothing. Many of the schools winning mock-trial championships have some of the worst employment placement numbers in the country. Employers don't care about that crap.

[Great Satchmo]

They just changed the stips from top 15% retains full scholly to top third. Over 2.8 GPA to keep half scholly.

GPA is curved, so 2.8 does not matter. 1/3 is what matters.

Two things to consider:

Best case you keep your scholarship. You are still going to a job where you'll have less than a 50% chance of getting a real legal job (note that the salary here is likely pretty low). You'll still have 3 years of cost of living debt. So, as a random guess, you'll come out with $30,000 in debt and have a 50% chance at legal employment. You cannot get rid of that $30,000 and it will become due and you're going to have to start paying that back - even if you get no legal job, or you get a job that pays as much as a college grad gets paid (not all that unlikely). There are a lot of people trying to get PD jobs, you will not be the more competitive of them most likely. It's possible, but you are going to have to get lucky in addition to extremely hard and diligent efforts on your own part.

Worst case? You end up being one of the almost 67% of the class that is not in the top third (you never know how you will do in law school, some people don't 'get' it despite being the hardest working students in the class). Then you lose your scholarship and have ~$10,000 in debt from living expenses and books and whatnot and nothing to show for it, if you drop out. Or, you look at the sunk cost and, ill-advisedly, proceed forward taking on many more tens of thousands in debt. Then you still have a less than 50% chance of finding legal work and you'll now have a huge payment to make each month. Even with the legal job, chances are you will have to take advantage of IBR and your loan will get paid down ever so slowly, keeping a burden on a only moderate income while making credit very hard to come by (cars, houses, etc).

So many people enter law school thinking "screw it, I'll be ok, this is an admirable profession and pursuit", but the reality is that most students do not really understand the risk given NON-DISCHARGEABLE DEBT (you cannot escape it, your paycheck will, for probably well more than a decade, take a hit every month) given the legal market.


If you can get the scholarship stipulations lowered substantially (i.e., top half), then it may be a gamble worth taking. However, it's highly likely that you're not approaching this truly with reality in hand - and taking the risk on top 1/3rd at a school like that, with employment prospects like that, just isn't sane in any world.

[dominicmassue]

Understand your points, big gamble, low odds. Lets just say I end up lucky and graduate top 10% in class with LR, Trial Team, decent connections, etc., am I still going to have to struggle for even a APA/PD job in Ohio/Michigan?

[BigZuck]

Understand your points, big gamble, low odds. Lets just say I end up lucky and graduate top 10% in class with LR, Trial Team, decent connections, etc., am I still going to have to struggle for even a APA/PD job in Ohio/Michigan?

Maybe? Almost certainly in Michigan, yes.

Think rationally about all this. You're most likely not a special snowflake, you'll probably be just as mediocre in law school as the rest of us.

What, from your academic and personal background, makes you think you have a good chance of finishing in the top 10% and getting all those accomplishments?

[PRgradBYU]

Understand your points, big gamble, low odds. Lets just say I end up lucky and graduate top 10% in class with LR, Trial Team, decent connections, etc., am I still going to have to struggle for even a APA/PD job in Ohio/Michigan?

Yes, you will. Only 42.4% of Akron Law grads end up securing full-time legal employment, and even then, the median salary is relatively low. Do not attend Akron or MSU -- MSU has an even lower percentage of graduates working as lawyers. Paying sticker for such unconscionably poor job prospects would be financial suicide.

[jselson]

Understand your points, big gamble, low odds. Lets just say I end up lucky and graduate top 10% in class with LR, Trial Team, decent connections, etc., am I still going to have to struggle for even a APA/PD job in Ohio/Michigan?

This is lotto logic. Stop it.

[dominicmassue]

That question is setting me up for criticism, but I'll bite.

Represented myself pro se in one criminal and one civil case. Won both. 5+ years WE. Took LSAT with absolutely NO prep - 160. Aced every class I actually studied for in undergrad. And I'm just damn confident.

[dominicmassue]

But, I see a consensus forming and it's pretty much the advice I expected. I'll take the advice. Thanks.

[timbs4339]

That question is setting me up for criticism, but I'll bite.

Represented myself pro se in one criminal and one civil case. Won both. 5+ years WE. Took LSAT with absolutely NO prep - 160. Aced every class I actually studied for in undergrad. And I'm just damn confident.

Retake, get into a better school. If you didn't study for the LSAT you are costing yourself tens of thousands of dollars. Maybe hundreds. Hell, depending on your GPA, maybe millions.

That you "represented yourself" in some case literally does not matter for how you'll do on the academic exercise that is a law school exam.

Your confidence is not surprising (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimism_bias).

[PRgradBYU]

That question is setting me up for criticism, but I'll bite.

Represented myself pro se in one criminal and one civil case. Won both. 5+ years WE. Took LSAT with absolutely NO prep - 160. Aced every class I actually studied for in undergrad. And I'm just damn confident.

Retake

[nebula666]

How could you possibly consider the notion of attending law school after not trying on your LSAT?

[Another]

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[jselson]

That question is setting me up for criticism, but I'll bite.

Represented myself pro se in one criminal and one civil case. Won both. 5+ years WE. Took LSAT with absolutely NO prep - 160. Aced every class I actually studied for in undergrad. And I'm just damn confident.

This is one of my favorite posts ever.

[dominicmassue]

How could you possibly consider the notion of attending law school after not trying on your LSAT?

I like to take tests cold. Did the same with ACT.

[BigZuck]

Aced every class you actually studied for?

So what's your GPA? Like a 3.2?

[dominicmassue]

Aced every class you actually studied for?

So what's your GPA? Like a 3.2?

Yep. 3.17.

[jrsbaseball5]

How could you possibly consider the notion of attending law school after not trying on your LSAT?

I like to take tests cold. Did the same with ACT.

I like to take tests cold too. They are called diagnostics and help you get a baseline so you can begin studying.

Seriously though OP retake and give yourself better options for better schools and better scholarships. A 160 cold means you have the potential to do great on the test if your willing to work.

[BigZuck]

Aced every class you actually studied for?

So what's your GPA? Like a 3.2?

Yep. 3.17.

In b4 "Damn BigZuck, you're good"

OP, retake. These schools are really bad

[shifty_eyed]

Aced every class you actually studied for?

So what's your GPA? Like a 3.2?

Yep. 3.17.

In b4 "Damn BigZuck, you're good"

OP, retake. These schools are really bad

Anytime I hear someone say, "I got a 1XX without studying on my first LSAT," I think MUCH less of them than someone who scored the same after some prep. Most people don't study enough for the LSAT, but to not do ANY preparation is just a waste of time and money.