NU 2 year JD (sticker) vs NYU (sticker) vs UC-Boulder JD/MD Forum

[inspectorfletch]

Hey there guys.
This is my second thread and 4th post so please be nice
I'm currently living overseas and eventually want to move to America after I graduate to live/work (family/lifestyle reasons). I graduate this year and would be looking to go to law school next year. Right now I am tossing up between the three schools in the topics title.
heres the info you guys need

- I dont have much money saved so I'll probably need to get a loan to pay, unless you guys think i could get a scholarship somewhere?
- I'm from Australia and want to work in Texas or Colorado or maybe NC, no significant ties anywhere apart from family in Texas (these locations because of lifestyle)
-I want to graduate and work in big law for a few years, save come money, get some good experience, then start a start up pharm/biotech firm (majoring in Cellular and Molecular Biology this year so its my other passion apart from law )
- Did the LSAT in February (mostly just to see how it is, there is still room for improvement) got a 166, ive gotten almost all H1's in uni thus far which in america I'm pretty sure becomes A's but my university is weird when it comes to GPA calculations, it'd be no less than 3.9 though, should be 4.0
- I've been living pretty insularly in my undergrad and wouldn't mind a law school with activities and things to do that aren't just law related, ie; at colorado i can go off skiing on weekends (if there is any time), New york is thriving with everything, I dont know what chicago has but that 2 year JD looks really nice

This thread is mainly to help me choose which uni I should strive for, and what i could do in the ~6 months between graduating and course commencement next year ?

Northwesterns accelerated JD program looks good, I think it would cost less because of one less year of paying cost of livign and forgoing a salary. I can get guarantee'd entry into NYU with a double JD program with a partnership my current university has with NYU, but it would take me 4 years to get the JD rather than three. and UC's JD/MD looks awesome because I love how science and law intersect and would love to do medical litigation law, or patent law, and that sort of thing + it might help for my start up (if it even goes well) to be a qualified physician, oh and i LOVE colorado, i LOVE boulder, the city and the campus, and even though its a huge workload I feel I would have the best quality of life there from the visits I've had. The main problem with UC (that I've heard) is that Colorado's big law is very insular and unless I can show some ties, I won't be very successful, but maybe going to school at UC counts?

Anyway I'm really open to any options, ideas, or advice you guys have for me, this is a great community and forum

[stuckinthemiddle]

Take NU and run. I absolutely would not even consider UC-Boulder if you want biglaw.

I think international students should make sure that debt isn't too crazy because I'm pretty sure the lack of ties will be a huge disadvantage.

[0831kf]

International GPAs are regarded as less valuable than LSAC GPA, due to the fact that they do not know each school and program (except Oxbridge and few others I guess)

Pretty much, with your GPA, if your LSAT is at or above their median, you'll probably get admission. Your LSAT is lower than NW's median, so I suggest re-taking. You probably will not get NYU. I wouldn't go to Boulder if you want biglaw. You have very small chance.

Plus, unless you have greencard or born-citizenship, you pretty much have only one choice after graduation: Biglaw. Other than biglaw, maybe business industries might offer you H-1 and Greencard, but no gov't agency or mid-small law would give you that. And I believe LRAP and PAYE wouldn't apply to you either (I might be wrong, so do more research on that if you want PI) Sucks to be you, but you really have to go to NW or NYU and then get biglaw to pay for your debt and greencard.

[mvonh001]

International GPAs are regarded as less valuable than LSAC GPA, due to the fact that they do not know each school and program (except Oxbridge and few others I guess)

Pretty much, with your GPA, if your LSAT is at or above their median, you'll probably get admission. Your LSAT is lower than NW's median, so I suggest re-taking. You probably will not get NYU. I wouldn't go to Boulder if you want biglaw. You have very small chance.

Plus, unless you have greencard or born-citizenship, you pretty much have only one choice after graduation: Biglaw. Other than biglaw, maybe business industries might offer you H-1 and Greencard, but no gov't agency or mid-small law would give you that. Sucks to be you, but you really have to go to NW or NYU and then get biglaw to pay for your debt and greencard.

"I can get guarantee'd entry into NYU"

Supposedly he can get into NYU... You should take NYU.

[0831kf]

International GPAs are regarded as less valuable than LSAC GPA, due to the fact that they do not know each school and program (except Oxbridge and few others I guess)

Pretty much, with your GPA, if your LSAT is at or above their median, you'll probably get admission. Your LSAT is lower than NW's median, so I suggest re-taking. You probably will not get NYU. I wouldn't go to Boulder if you want biglaw. You have very small chance.

Plus, unless you have greencard or born-citizenship, you pretty much have only one choice after graduation: Biglaw. Other than biglaw, maybe business industries might offer you H-1 and Greencard, but no gov't agency or mid-small law would give you that. Sucks to be you, but you really have to go to NW or NYU and then get biglaw to pay for your debt and greencard.

"I can get guarantee'd entry into NYU"

Supposedly he can get into NYU... You should take NYU.

Oh I missed that part.... sorry. I suggest you take NYU and do your best there!

[inspectorfletch]

so NYU over the others even if it will take 4 years instead of three?

[mvonh001]

so NYU over the others even if it will take 4 years instead of three?

Ya, enjoy life in the states, and network. Your time wont be wasted

[NYstate]

Go to Boulder.

Having an MD is the best possible position to be in. Medicine is the way to go here. If it doesn't work out in law, you can be a doctor.

Law is a terribly uncertain profession regardless of specialty. I'm not saying that a doctors career is certain either, but it is better than law.

Plus boulder is amazing .

Denver biglaw is small so might have to leave. Don't worry about your lack of ties if you can get a medical degree and you are international. Firms can't expect an international person to have ties . But you can go to the large markets where they won't care.
NYU at sticker is not the way to go.

I hope you listen to me on this one. Get your MD as well.
If not sure, make a poll.

[0831kf]

I suggested NYU because with your LSAT you probably won't get anything better. If you get regular admission from T-14, maybe it would be better than NYU.

Regarding MD... I know a friend who have both MD/JD. He works as a lawyer. He graduated from non T-14 and still got biglaw relatively easily regarding healthcare, due to MD degree and experience (4 yrs of practice as a physician). However, you only can work either as a doctor or lawyer, not the two together. Unless you want to work as a doctor, 8 yrs is not worth it IMO just to work as a lawyer (assuming you would go through intern-resident). I'd rather go to T-14 and shoot for biglaw from there than going through either 7 yrs of school alone or 11 yrs of school+intern and resident.

Choose one way, either doctor or lawyer. Honestly, probability wise, MD is the way. But if you want to work as a lawyer, do not waste time and money for MD. Yeah, the knowledge is awesome, but it's too much opportunity cost just to earn MD and not really use it.

[justonemoregame]

How much debt will you have from each school after you graduate, and how will you pay it back?

4 years in New York on loans? don't do this. (I think this might actually break the Georgetown calculator)

Another vote for Boulder here, because they'll probably give you a scholarship, and it sounds like you'll enjoy it more.

[californiauser]

Are you an American citizen? Do you plan on taking out U.S. federal loans?

[Paul Campos]

(1) To get into a dual JD/MD program at CU you have to be admitted to both schools independently. CU's medical school is one of the harder ones to get into, with an average MCAT score for admits in the 97th percentile (it's way harder to get a high MCAT score than a high LSAT).

(2) I don't know that any such program actually exists. It exists in the law school rules but if anyone has ever gone through it I'm unaware of the fact.

(3) Out of state tuition at the medical school is $60,000 per year. I don't know if an international student would be eligible for in state tuition after the first year. Best case scenario for total tuition for this program -- assuming again it exists -- is $225K. It may well be $360K for an international student. And that doesn't include cost of living.

(4) International students aren't eligible for US federal government educational loans.

[inspectorfletch]

It will only be two years spent in New york, because the university im at in australia has a double JD program with NYU, so its two years in australia, two years in new york, but its still expensive to live in new york and go to law school there on loans for two years

i can easily bump up my LSAT's if i do any preparation because i walked into it unsure of what to even expect because i wasn't completely sold on law back then and just sort of ended up doing the LSAT

if everyone thinks CU's MD/JD is stupid ill probably cross that off

and northwestern has a JD/PhD program that looks awesome and nearly everyone who does it gets full scholarships and living allowances. my gpa is perfect/near perfect, with better LSAT's should i go for that? if it means less loans?
can i go to colorado/texas with a northwestern law degree?

[NYstate]

(1) To get into a dual JD/MD program at CU you have to be admitted to both schools independently. CU's medical school is one of the harder ones to get into, with an average MCAT score for admits in the 97th percentile (it's way harder to get a high MCAT score than a high LSAT).

(2) I don't know that any such program actually exists. It exists in the law school rules but if anyone has ever gone through it I'm unaware of the fact.

(3) Out of state tuition at the medical school is $60,000 per year. I don't know if an international student would be eligible for in state tuition after the first year. Best case scenario for total tuition for this program -- assuming again it exists -- is $225K. It may well be $360K for an international student. And that doesn't include cost of living.

(4) International students aren't eligible for US federal government educational loans.

I didn't realize these choices were all pipe dreams. OP: where are you getting the loans from? Only the US government is crazy enough to give poor unemployed people the COA asked by law and medical schools. But even the US government restricts loans to citizens or LPRs. As an Australian citizen you aren't getting a dime from the Feds.

Unless you have independent means, you need to figure out something else.

[NYstate]

It will only be two years spent in New york, because the university im at in australia has a double JD program with NYU, so its two years in australia, two years in new york, but its still expensive to live in new york and go to law school there on loans for two years

i can easily bump up my LSAT's if i do any preparation because i walked into it unsure of what to even expect because i wasn't completely sold on law back then and just sort of ended up doing the LSAT

if everyone thinks CU's MD/JD is stupid ill probably cross that off

and northwestern has a JD/PhD program that looks awesome and nearly everyone who does it gets full scholarships and living allowances. my gpa is perfect/near perfect, with better LSAT's should i go for that? if it means less loans?
can i go to colorado/texas with a northwestern law degree?

How about you retake the LSAT and come back when you have a score. Your GPA is not as important because schools can't report it. We can't really advise you until you have real numbers. Who knows with a 180 you might get Yale.

It is a waste of time to look at all these programs until you have the facts.

As to NYU joint program- I have no idea how that will look to employers. Can you get loans from Australia to pay for it.

[09042014]

Boulder JD/MD minus the JD part.

[inspectorfletch]

Can you get loans from Australia to pay for it.

yeah 6% interest



alright guys it seems i should re take the LSAT then reasses the options

thanks for the advice so far anyway, ill post up a new thread after ive taken my next LSAT's

[jbagelboy]

Have you taken the MCAT? If so, are you above 35? Just ballpark for me...

You don't need an MD to do biotech/pharm law. An MA or PhD in the relevant field will do. As Campos mentioned, if you pay for the MD at Boulder, you'll most likely have to practice medicineto pay it off, not law, since UC placement stats are not strong enough to depend on a high salary upon graduation.

So the first thing to decide is whether you want to be a practicing physician or a practicing attorney. You could get into medical malpractice, but thats a rather niche field and still not really practicing both.

Also, more generally, i think the other posters might not be giving OP enough credit. Yes, an LSAT score over 170 is critical and he/she should sit for another administration, but it sounds like based on the dual programs mentioned, OP goes to Melbourne. Thats like going to Harvard, Cambridge, or ENS. Im pretty sure his top grades will be just as recognizeable as any other high ranked Anglo-American university.

We tend to give international students some shit on here to alert as to the perils of the american JD, but OP seems to have done their homework and is well collected. I would take the LSAT for 170+ and apply more broadly to see where you obtain scholarships, with the NYU dual degree in your back pocket -- if it is via Melbourne, that side of the law degree would serve you immensely well in Aussie or the UK if US biglaw didnt turn out, although paying off US tuition on a magic circle trainee salary would be a pain.

[untar614]

long-term, you will, on average, make more money practicing medicine than law. Have you actually been accepted to Colorado's MD program (which btw is in Aurora, just outside Denver, not in Boulder)? If not, don't take that as a given. Med school is hard to get into even with great stats, as they want a lot of other stuff and for you to make them feel good about themselves. If you do get in to a US MD school (or MD/PhD, which is more research focused - takes longer, but you pay no tuition and get a stiped), do that for a while and try to get an academic position within a university in which you can do research as well. Save up some money, learn business, then work on your startup.

[Big Dog]

UC's JD/MD looks awesome

Except for a small nit: Univ of Colorado med generally doesn't accept internationals. Indeed, most US med schools do not accept internationals. So that is not a realistic option.

btw: the med school is in Denver.