ASU grad looking at out of state schools Forum

[KamronK]

Hi all,
I recently graduated from Arizona State with a B.S. in Political Science. I had a 3.3 GPA, but LSAC will probably drop me down slightly. I like Arizona, but I would like to get a new experience while I'm in law school. I've read quite a bit about the importance of having ties to a particular state if you are looking at regional schools, so I would like to know your opinion on how much debt you would take on at the schools I'm considering. I want Big Law, but I'm realistic about those chances as I have gone over the statistics at LST.

My current list is:
Vanderbilt
WUSL
Minnesota
Georgia
North Carolina
ASU
William & Mary
Alabama

I would consider BC, BU, Emory, Fordham, and Illinois because of the increased chances at Big Law. I have no debt now, but a small savings, so I will be paying for grad school almost completely with loans. How much debt would you be willing to take on from schools at this level over three years for the experience to be worth it? Also, from your experience, are there other schools that are realistic and worth applying to that I haven't mentioned?

[rad lulz]

Dude just go take the LSAT

None of this will matter if you get a 156 or a 175

[Ti Malice]

Like rad says, this is all a waste of time until you have an actual LSAT score.

[andythefir]

Also, Emory/BU/BC place well in places that are far from Arizona. Legal hiring cares about where you were born, where you went to high school, where your family is etc. I tried to break into midwest biglaw from ND with a resume that screamed the southwest and got almost zero interest from the midwest. A lot of interest where I was from, but almost no interest outside the region.

[BeautifulSW]

Graduating college with no debt? Are you SURE you want to go to law school? If so, I'd strongly suggest staying in Arizona for your legal career if you can get through AU or ASU reasonably cheaply.

[RodneyBoonfield]

^ This

[KamronK]

I'm a political science major...there aren't many decent jobs available for me, and I chose it with law school in mind all four years of college. I really would like to move to the south. The only reason I haven't for my year off was that it is difficult to find work out of state with my degree (I put out about 30 apps in GA alone, and even asked a few friends that I have out there if they had any connections), and I don't have the savings to cover the move. UGA is one of my top choices, and I visited earlier this year.

If I am accepted when I apply this year, would it be possible to push that offer to begin in 2015?

[BeautifulSW]

Well...I don't know that going to law school for want of anything better to do is such a good idea especially since the OP intends to borrow six figures to do it. Might end up owing a lot of money and still not having a job.

Don't go to law school unless you really want to be a lawyer.

[KamronK]

Sorry if I wasn't clear....that's my fault. I really do want to be a lawyer, and that's why it has been my plan for over four years. It's not because I have nothing better to do. I just would like to end up working in the South if not NY, CHI, DC after scoring a 170+ on the LSAT. It's disappointing that having ties would matter so much if you go to a school like UGA, where you know you'd likely end up in Atlanta. That has to be the ultimate goal for those who attend a regional school such as that one. I could understand if it was a higher-ranked school that would give you more of an option to go back home if that's what you wanted to do (Vandy, WUSL, Texas, UCLA).

I suppose it's stupid to be self-limiting...I should be only thinking of scoring 170+ from now until October anyway.

[rad lulz]

Getting a job in the south is difficult if you're not a southerner.

If you really want to work in the south you need to move to your target state and work for a couple yrs at least

[KamronK]

Understood. It's disappointing, because I really like both UGA and UNC. Would it still be worth looking at schools like Vandy, Emory, WUSL, and Minnesota. Are there more opportunities that come from schools at this level if I do well enough on the LSAT, even though they're not T14? Not at sticker, but if it's still a bit more expensive than ASU?

[rad lulz]

Understood. It's disappointing, because I really like both UGA and UNC. Would it still be worth looking at schools like Vandy, Emory, WUSL, and Minnesota. Are there more opportunities that come from schools at this level if I do well enough on the LSAT, even though they're not T14? Not at sticker, but if it's still a bit more expensive than ASU?

1) WUSTL and Minn are not strong Southern schools

2) Even if you went to Vanderbilt it's hard to get firms in NC/GA/etc. to take you srsly unless you are from there or have spent significant time there

[KamronK]

1. I just mean as an opportunity to study elsewhere and have an improved shot at Big Law.

2. Vandy would allow me the opportunity to at least study in the South, and I would appreciate that experience. They like to advertise having alumni everywhere, so I also was looking to see how much better it would be compared to ASU in overall job prospects. I definitely wouldn't go unless I get a scholarship, because Vandy is way too expensive.

Thank you for the help.

Edit: Sounds like it's 171 or bust...Not that ASU is a terrible option.

[BigZuck]

Plenty of time to worry about this stuff once you get an LSAT score IMO.

If you want a job as a lawyer in a particular state then move there, work, and establish ties. You have friends in Georgia and want to settle down there? Then pack up your car tomorrow, surf some couches when you get there, and go find a job. I did exactly that and it's the best decision I ever made.

[dr123]

Why do you want to go to the south so bad?

[J-e-L-L-o]

This sounds like grasping at straws while you figure out life.

If you want to work in the south, you will have to move there and find a job. It doesn't make sense to move across the country for something you would like to do but have no experience or ties. Even worse to try to attend law school ITE.

30 apps is nothing. You would have to send out 300 apps to get a meaningful chance at employment in a new region you are unfamiliar with. You have a degree, so you are not limited in job prospects.

But who cares about all that. If you really want to go to law school, study hard for the LSAT and come back with a score. Anything else is an anectdotal pipe dream.

[KamronK]

This is my last question on this thread before I return to y'all with an LSAT score and LSAC GPA:

From your feedback, I feel like I should probably drop schools like UGA, UNC, Alabama, and William & Mary because I will probably not get a job in the area once I graduate. What would be some schools that are worth applying to that are similar to ASU? Would the University of Illinois be a good option? The chances at big law are far greater than at ASU, and I would think that ties would matter less when you're entering a regional school with a much legal larger market. So, outside of scoring a 171+ on the LSAT and going after Northwestern, Cornell, and GULC, what other schools should I aim for that will give me the best chance at big law and/or scholarship money?

I know I don't have that much information at the moment. I just like to get as much information as possible so that I am not wasting any resources on so many applications.

[BigZuck]

The only schools I would go to without having ties to the area they are located in are T14 schools (maaaaaybe T18).

Chicago big law isn't happening without ties and good grades (or maybe NU/Chi plus good grades) from what I have heard about that particular market.

[KamronK]

Following up on this with some more information and a couple more questions:
I earned a 163 on my first attempt and am now practice testing in the mid-160s. I plan to retake in February and take one more year off.
This wasn't ideal, but since I last posted I began a job at a large retail company and will have full-time status soon. If I need to, this would allow me to transfer to the South for a while before beginning law school. If I remain in the mid-160s with my retake(s), UGA is my top choice.

My question is, would it benefit me at all to apply to their JD/MPA program? I want to be a lawyer, and normally I wouldn't consider these joint degrees, but I also have interest in government work. Georgia's MPA program is ranked #4 in the country. Would it be a good back-up to have that degree if I can't get Big Law, or will the combination of the two give me any advantage if I wanted to pursue a DOJ career? Would this question be better in the UGA thread?

[rad lulz]

n

[worldtraveler]

Following up on this with some more information and a couple more questions:
I earned a 163 on my first attempt and am now practice testing in the mid-160s. I plan to retake in February and take one more year off.
This wasn't ideal, but since I last posted I began a job at a large retail company and will have full-time status soon. If I need to, this would allow me to transfer to the South for a while before beginning law school. If I remain in the mid-160s with my retake(s), UGA is my top choice.

My question is, would it benefit me at all to apply to their JD/MPA program? I want to be a lawyer, and normally I wouldn't consider these joint degrees, but I also have interest in government work. Georgia's MPA program is ranked #4 in the country. Would it be a good back-up to have that degree if I can't get Big Law, or will the combination of the two give me any advantage if I wanted to pursue a DOJ career? Would this question be better in the UGA thread?

Don't do a joint degree just to have one. It won't help you a bit in becoming a lawyer, and you won't get DOJ anyway (they are hiring about 5 people a year, if that).

[MyNameIsFlynn!]

Are you from Georgia? If not, you'll be unemployed upon graduation unless you're in the top 5-10% of your class.

People choose state flagships like UGA because a) tuition is relatively cheap and b) they are comfortable with solo practice, small law, or local gov't. It sounds like you don't have the advantage of in-state tuition, nor does it sound like you have the connections to land small law or local gov't. UGA is a well-respected degree in Georgia, but you'll be competing with UVA/Duke, Vandy, Emory, and then all the UGA/Ga State/Mercer grads with lifelong ties to Georgia.

Also, what is this fascination with the South? Do you understand that Atlanta is only "the South" with respect to geography?

Edit: I see you're moving to Georgia to work for a while. While this may help you get in-state tuition, it doesn't take away from the fact that your most likely outcome is unemployment unless you have meaningful ties to Georgia (it'd be a stretch to call working retail for a year before law school a meaningful tie).

Edit2: Don't bother with the MPA program. It's a waste of time. Source: former Georgia MPA student.

[timbs4339]

It's like I'll just get a really competitive job and then if that doesn't work out I'll fall back on an even more competitive kind of job!

This:

Just FYI your chances at DOJ honors are effectively 0

They hire almost no one

Use google to see how many non EIOR people they take

Also don't get the MPA; waste of money

[KamronK]

Are you from Georgia? If not, you'll be unemployed upon graduation unless you're in the top 5-10% of your class.

People choose state flagships like UGA because a) tuition is relatively cheap and b) they are comfortable with solo practice, small law, or local gov't. It sounds like you don't have the advantage of in-state tuition, nor does it sound like you have the connections to land small law or local gov't. UGA is a well-respected degree in Georgia, but you'll be competing with UVA/Duke, Vandy, Emory, and then all the UGA/Ga State/Mercer grads with lifelong ties to Georgia.

Also, what is this fascination with the South? Do you understand that Atlanta is only "the South" with respect to geography?

Edit: I see you're moving to Georgia to work for a while. While this may help you get in-state tuition, it doesn't take away from the fact that your most likely outcome is unemployment unless you have meaningful ties to Georgia (it'd be a stretch to call working retail for a year before law school a meaningful tie).

Edit2: Don't bother with the MPA program. It's a waste of time. Source: former Georgia MPA student.

In regards to my "fascination", I visited Georgia. I went to Atlanta, Athens, and did a law school visit. I loved everything about it.


Timbs, I didn't mean DOJ as a back-up. I was just wondering if the combination would help there, but thank you for the information on that. What I meant as a back-up is jobs that MPA students normally go for. I figured there would be some career options in government since the school is ranked #4 right behind Harvard, and I know a few Harvard MPA grads who are doing well. I suppose it's more due to the H than the degree.

[Jcosma]

An MPA is not really a useful degree unless it is coupled with substantial work experience and a very clear vision of what you want to do. It definitely will not help with BigFed recruiting.